1917 "1" Block Dresden Sterngewehr

[chrisftk]

Hey All,

All this Saxon talk lately made me very motivated to post this one; its very similar to Marc's as it has the Bayard subcontracted receiver, but this one is a "1" suffix.

The Dresden rifles have always been of interest. I currently have a "no suffix", this one and a "2" suffix. The variation of parts is fascinating-- I've seen salvaged receivers, Bayards, S&H, Simson and plain Spandau blanks, Has anyone encountered any other suppliers?

This particular rifle matches to the screws and presents well overall. There are a high number of the c/W) armorer's parts. The suffix on triggerguard and buttplate is an interesting touch.

The barrel code is quite odd, any thoughts from you Paul?

Here's the data:
Receiver 4559 1
Barrel 4559 1 S 38?
Front Sight 59
Rear Sight Leaf 59
Sight Slider 59
Ejector Box 59
Trigger Sear 59
Front Barrel Band 59
Rear Barrel Band 59
Trigger Guard 4559 1
Trigger Guard Screws 59,59
Floor Plate 59
Follower 59
Stock 4559
Handguard 4559
Buttplate 4559 1
Bayonet Lug 59
Cleaning Rod no #
Bolt Body 4559 1
Extractor 59
Safety 59
Cocking Piece 59
Bolt Sleeve 59
Firing Pin 59

Thanks for looking--

 

[chrisftk]

more pics

 

[chrisftk]

more pics

 

[mauser1908]

Chris beautiful rifle! I have seen these assembly on WOK receivers as well.

 

[joryfreeburg]

Very nice!

 

[Loewe]

A nice example, one I didn't have recorded (which is always the ones I like best!)

The barrel is unusual, in many ways the Dresden made sterngewehrs have characteristics that resemble H-receivers (Hannover's for lack of a better attribution), this particular acceptance stamp is seen or similar to one seen at Spandau and later Hannover. The practice of BC FRS is generally a Berlin feature (Spandau overseen firms DWM & WOK - Hannover clearly falls in with this Spandau-Berlin scheme, obviously the inheritor of Spandau's rifle program).

I think it is very possible Spandau collaborated or in some way, assisted or oversaw Dresden's operation. The "Sa" seen on most of their barrels suggest to me that they were Saxon made (these predominate Dresden barrel production but are often seen on un-related re-barrels, which may indicate a rifle that passed through Saxon hands for repair - quite a few pre-war or early war receivers were drawn into Dresden's sterngewehr program also). In this case I suspect this is a Spandau barrel, or has a connection to Spandau, - not in the sense of work done at Spandau, but perhaps a barrel supplied by Spandau or the ordnance system.

As for the "S" source identifier, it is rarely seen alone, two Spandau/15's use a solo "S" both i-blocks, but have lot numbers. Two Erfurt/17 c-blocks also sport shielded "S" but are both Böhler (Bö) marked, - clearly normal Erfurt mfg, so not sure the purpose of the shield "S" trademark? or Logo?

In short, Dresden's and Hannover's developed strange barrel coding, unique for the most part, Hannover's is even more diverse, - several Fritz Werner barrels are known, one of Germany's premier industrial firms, right up there with S&H, though FW made 98k barrels in WWII also (also rare)

One thing is for sure, we haven't seen everything yet and our answers have more to do with guessing than knowing!

 

[Loewe]

As for source receivers for Dresden, I will try and find time to trend them for the forum, but I have recorded about 47-48 rifles. Breakdown by receiver source:

Spandau 16/17 marked - 28
Simson 1916 & 1917- 6
WOK/16 - 6
Pre-war salvaged - 8

** Danzig sterngewehrs are slightly more numerous, over 50, but they are quite different and serialized within normal production, much like with WMO variations. Erfurt's are similarly around 50 or so. (Spandau SG - 34 numeric suffix) (WMO SG - 14 also mingled with normal production)

 

[chrisftk]

I think it is very possible Spandau collaborated or in some way, assisted or oversaw Dresden's operation. The "Sa" seen on most of their barrels suggest to me that they were Saxon made (these predominate Dresden barrel production but are often seen on un-related re-barrels, which may indicate a rifle that passed through Saxon hands for repair - quite a few pre-war or early war receivers were drawn into Dresden's sterngewehr program also). In this case I suspect this is a Spandau barrel, or has a connection to Spandau, - not in the sense of work done at Spandau, but perhaps a barrel supplied by Spandau or the ordnance system.

Thanks Paul... That is interesting and makes sense. Perhaps the support of Spandau was a bit of an olive branch to Saxon hard feelings at not having a state arsenal.

Do we have any indication on Spandau 14/15 receivers used at Dresden? My no suffix rifle is the only one I've seen-

 

[Loewe]

I have not trended the sterngewehrs into formal sheets, so examination has to be individually. The one rifle that supports this theory is your 1914-15 Spandau 5903, which is displayed on the forum. It has a 1915 date (buttplate date these) but the RR acceptance is largely defaced. However the first position is a C/P and Spandau only shared this inspector (first position pattern) in 1904-1905, the exact same character, it is not known in 1914 or 1915, but without the second two characters it is difficult to speculate further?? (Though the second two would be Saxon acceptance)

Your rifle could be a 1904-1905 Spandau receiver with flaws that Spandau dispensed to Dresden in 1915 where it was dated, - but I will make comparisons to the date fonts of Spandau to see if there are any clues. What is for sure though is 5903 is the only Dresden recorded with a 1915 dated cypher on the BP. Even all the salvaged receivers, so far as the BP is shown, are 1916's. That rifle of yours is probably the most interesting sterngewehr known, unique in many ways, probably due to its early (learning-developing) nature but someone really screwed it up, which is a real crime because it is so early and so original.

 

[Tom H]

Nice Christfk. Better condition than most Sterngewehrs.

 

[Loewe]

I have not trended the sterngewehrs into formal sheets, so examination has to be individually. The one rifle that supports this theory is your 1914-15 Spandau 5903, which is displayed on the forum. It has a 1915 date (buttplate date these) but the RR acceptance is largely defaced. However the first position is a C/P and Spandau only shared this inspector (first position pattern) in 1904-1905, the exact same character, it is not known in 1914 or 1915, but without the second two characters it is difficult to speculate further?? (Though the second two would be Saxon acceptance)

Your rifle could be a 1904-1905 Spandau receiver with flaws that Spandau dispensed to Dresden in 1915 where it was dated, - but I will make comparisons to the date fonts of Spandau to see if there are any clues. What is for sure though is 5903 is the only Dresden recorded with a 1915 dated cypher on the BP. Even all the salvaged receivers, so far as the BP is shown, are 1916's. That rifle of yours is probably the most interesting sterngewehr known, unique in many ways, probably due to its early (learning-developing) nature but someone really screwed it up, which is a real crime because it is so early and so original.

Ah! I see your host rifle was a Spandau/04...! So trends were right and I just mistook it from haste to post!

 

[chrisftk]

Ah! I see your host rifle was a Spandau/04...! So trends were right and I just mistook it from haste to post!

Thanks Paul,

I took a few more pics of the RR on that 14/15. I beleive the 2nd character is a K, or possibly a B (though i'd imagine K for Saxon) No clue on the 3rd, but it's plausible K or B.

 

[Loewe]

This tread is all screwed up, on my part anyway, - when a thread lingers over a day I lose the continuity of the discussion, - yours is a Spandau/14 not an Spandau/04 receiver, just the first position (receiver hardening) is only known in 1904... no other Spandau/14 has this particular character, most are C/H, though C/D & C/G are known in 1914 (my interpretations of the fraktur). The latter two would be for mating the receiver and barrel etc.. and I wouldn't expect them to match with a Saxon sterngewehr, and as this is the only 1915 known, we have little to compare it to & I doubt we will find much commonality. Perhaps some 1916 Dresden's w/o suffix would be a good place to start...

I will try and do a simple trends on the known patterns and maybe something will catch our eye... though it will have to be the weekend (if I can remember), but I will try and not forget!

** one project I would like to get help on, especially from our German friends, is to develop a Fraktur & Sütterlin library where collectors can decipher these characters in a more uniform method. I fully accept my interpretations are highly subjective, and that is fine for trends work as I am seeking patterns and a "consistency of the identification" is all that requires, but if we can collectively form a consensus of character identification we will at least be on the same page.

 

[mauser1908]

It’s a screamer Chris!