1917 "H" Spandau-

[chrisftk]

Hi All,

This one came in the other day and wanted to share.

It's a fairly nice looking Hannover/Spandau build-- The bolt doesn't match(unfortunate), but I can thank Sam for kicking me and reminding me that these are uncommon this complete.

The rifle has a nice mix of armorer and a few salvaged/non-renumbered parts you'd expect from one of these Hannover rifles-- The receiver is a Pieper as well, which is always interesting.

Here's the data:
Receiver 4157 b
Barrel 4157 b (kr 711)
Front Sight 57
Rear Sight Leaf: mm
Sight Slider mm
Ejector Box 57
Trigger Sear 57
Front Barrel Band mm
Rear Barrel Band mm
Trigger Guard 4157
Trigger Guard Screws 57, 57
Floor Plate 57
Follower 57
Stock 4157
Handguard 4157
Buttplate 4157
Bayonet Lug 57
Cleaning Rod unnumbered
Bolt: m/m

 

[chrisftk]

more photos

 

[Loewe]

A good rule to follow is 'listen to Sam'!

If not the only example this original, it is probably the best detailed... though I suspect it has few competitors in originality... these rifles (variation) were used and most were used up. Most are little more than barreled receivers, but I would need to be on the main computer to view the database. I did work on the new sterngewehr research thread today, detailed the WMO builds, the Hannovers will be next and I will know more then, but I do remember Pieper receivers are rarely recorded, almost all are S&H receivers, so that is neat on this one... (I think there was one other Pieper, hopefully it will group well with this one)

** I doubt a matching to bolt example exist or at least recorded... would have been damn helpful had a researcher come across one and detail the bolt patterns, because I am pretty sure it will be unique,

*** I agree on the point that these clearly are related to Spandau, the barrel pattern, the way the stock is marked clearly means a ordnance facility did these, whether Hannover is the location is still a question in my mind, but its not to be discounted either, Mark is a researcher to take serious, but I would like to have something more, a artillery or munitions depot located there, or something besides the few schools known, Most important to accepting (for now at least) is that I can't think of a better possibility!

 

[Warrior1354]

I actually own a matching bolt example Paul but unfortunately the rifle was a war bond rifle and it was turned into the police department they cut the original receiver in half. Basically I bought the rifle as a parts rifle. I ended up using parts from it to restore three other Gewehrs. I believe I posted it here back in 2019 if you still would like to use the data for your research.

Anyway nice rifle Chris and very hard to locate this matching

 

[chrisftk]

A good rule to follow is 'listen to Sam'!

If not the only example this original, it is probably the best detailed... though I suspect it has few competitors in originality... these rifles (variation) were used and most were used up. Most are little more than barreled receivers, but I would need to be on the main computer to view the database. I did work on the new sterngewehr research thread today, detailed the WMO builds, the Hannovers will be next and I will know more then, but I do remember Pieper receivers are rarely recorded, almost all are S&H receivers, so that is neat on this one... (I think there was one other Pieper, hopefully it will group well with this one)

** I doubt a matching to bolt example exist or at least recorded... would have been damn helpful had a researcher come across one and detail the bolt patterns, because I am pretty sure it will be unique,

*** I agree on the point that these clearly are related to Spandau, the barrel pattern, the way the stock is marked clearly means a ordnance facility did these, whether Hannover is the location is still a question in my mind, but its not to be discounted either, Mark is a researcher to take serious, but I would like to have something more, a artillery or munitions depot located there, or something besides the few schools known, Most important to accepting (for now at least) is that I can't think of a better possibility!

Thanks Paul-- with our group here, there is more than enough peer pressure to go around. I believe his exact words were "buy that shite now!" when I sent it to him. Sam has a good eye for these in general-- it also helps he's a great guy and a good friend.

You might recall another H rifle I have with a matched bolt-- though this one was built off a salvaged (and depot renumbered) receiver-- my understanding is that H marked receivers were simply new production ones, while salvaged ones may have been mixed in early on?
https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/hannover-depot-build.40545/#post-298806

In any case, I appreciate the additional information as always--

I actually own a matching bolt example Paul but unfortunately the rifle was a war bond rifle and it was turned into the police department they cut the original receiver in half. Basically I bought the rifle as a parts rifle. I ended up using parts from it to restore three other Gewehrs. I believe I posted it here back in 2019 if you still would like to use the data for your research.

Anyway nice rifle Chris and very hard to locate this matching

Thanks Jordan-- you know how persuasive we can be in peer pressuring. haha.

That's a shame that the one you found was demilled-- At least you got it and were able to get data-- too bad it's not serviceable, but at least it didn't get drilled, tapped and a fancy peep sight added.....

 

[Loewe]

Access to the database reveals at least one fully matching, a 2015 LR auction, Spandau/18 540/i and because this flipper shows rifles in full detail we do have a baseline example.

Further 6 Pieper H-receivers confirmed (including this one):

1917 Spandau 4157 b
1917 Spandau 9534 b

1918 Spandau 2455 g
1918 Spandau 2926 g

1918 Spandau 8134 h
1917 Spandau 9220 h

 

[Loewe]

Thanks Paul-- with our group here, there is more than enough peer pressure to go around. I believe his exact words were "buy that shite now!" when I sent it to him. Sam has a good eye for these in general-- it also helps he's a great guy and a good friend.

You might recall another H rifle I have with a matched bolt-- though this one was built off a salvaged (and depot renumbered) receiver-- my understanding is that H marked receivers were simply new production ones, while salvaged ones may have been mixed in early on?
https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/hannover-depot-build.40545/#post-298806

In any case, I appreciate the additional information as always--


Thanks Jordan-- you know how persuasive we can be in peer pressuring. haha.

That's a shame that the one you found was demilled-- At least you got it and were able to get data-- too bad it's not serviceable, but at least it didn't get drilled, tapped and a fancy peep sight added.....

Yes, going from memory is an ill-advised approach, but I will try and work on the H-receivers next, at least get the rifle details in general developed. Over time it will evolve to suit needs better. I will say there are wide gaps in observations... e & f blocks no example has been discovered, or recorded, and the variation ranges to the k-block.

** Something unfortunate is that many reports are fragmentary, poorly illustrated, or partial in key points. Every variation comes with a great deal of guessing or speculation, but this variation is especially vulnerable to this practice. Some reports are just a couple of pictures! But luckily some of the flippers flesh out an example that can fill in some of the possibilities and give a decent overall view.

 

[Loewe]

I just updated the H-receivers trends sheet in the new research thread I am developing. I am keeping it locked and floating for the moment as it is fleshed out with the transfer and corrections from my database to the thread. I might expand it or alter its structure as it progresses. (sterngewehrs are more complicated to trend, there are more variables and inconsistencies... I need time to see how it progresses before it opens - I started sterngewehr trend sheets in 2009 and they are too erratic to just cut and paste! These always evolve and what and how recorded often changes over time -often some stinkers or uncertainties need to be removed...)

We need a lot more recordings to even start guessing at patterns or origins, then there are the H-buttplate reworks, not formal builds but rifles that passed for repair through the facility. That would require many thousands of examinations to sort them out of the database, so that might be impossible, maybe I can backfill some observations when I come across them, but I think they might add some relevance or possible clues to origins of the "H" (I noted Mark's references in the KCN starting in 1994, again in 1998 and they are stated as speculation. His views today would probably be more clear after 20 years of reflection and research); I may expand the H-buttplates to its own post to lnclude[ them in the same thread but separated so they can be compared easily...

 

[mauser1908]

A good rule to follow is 'listen to Sam'!

If not the only example this original, it is probably the best detailed... though I suspect it has few competitors in originality... these rifles (variation) were used and most were used up. Most are little more than barreled receivers, but I would need to be on the main computer to view the database. I did work on the new sterngewehr research thread today, detailed the WMO builds, the Hannovers will be next and I will know more then, but I do remember Pieper receivers are rarely recorded, almost all are S&H receivers, so that is neat on this one... (I think there was one other Pieper, hopefully it will group well with this one)

** I doubt a matching to bolt example exist or at least recorded... would have been damn helpful had a researcher come across one and detail the bolt patterns, because I am pretty sure it will be unique,

*** I agree on the point that these clearly are related to Spandau, the barrel pattern, the way the stock is marked clearly means a ordnance facility did these, whether Hannover is the location is still a question in my mind, but its not to be discounted either, Mark is a researcher to take serious, but I would like to have something more, a artillery or munitions depot located there, or something besides the few schools known, Most important to accepting (for now at least) is that I can't think of a better possibility!

Thanks Paul-- with our group here, there is more than enough peer pressure to go around. I believe his exact words were "buy that shite now!" when I sent it to him. Sam has a good eye for these in general-- it also helps he's a great guy and a good friend.

You might recall another H rifle I have with a matched bolt-- though this one was built off a salvaged (and depot renumbered) receiver-- my understanding is that H marked receivers were simply new production ones, while salvaged ones may have been mixed in early on?
https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/hannover-depot-build.40545/#post-298806

In any case, I appreciate the additional information as always--


Thanks Jordan-- you know how persuasive we can be in peer pressuring. haha.

That's a shame that the one you found was demilled-- At least you got it and were able to get data-- too bad it's not serviceable, but at least it didn't get drilled, tapped and a fancy peep sight added.....

Thanks for the kind words guys! It's a great rifle Chris, glad you got it. You almost never see examples built on Pieper receivers come up for sale, which explains my forcefulness. They have always been one of my favorite variations. Outside of the often subcontracted receivers my favorite features of these are lone hardening proof on the right receiver and the lack of any assembly acceptance on the magazine and stock. Unless you were an imperial collector you would most likely think these were humped junk.

Hopefully I will come across one with a Pieper receiver someday to pair with the S&H I currently have.

This is anecdotal, but I have observed three variations of 'H' affiliated rifles. I would categorize them as follows:
1. Depot repairs, bears the 'H' on the buttplate
2. Depot builds where the old s/n has been struck and a new one applied. These bear the 'H' on the buttplate but not the receiver. Generally they seem to be a combination of new and salvaged parts retaining the original numbers. (Chris has an example like this, I recall it started life as a 1905 DWM or something)
3. 'H' Built Sterngewehrs

I often wonder if category 2 and 3 are related in the sense that these are earlier in the timeline considering they wouldn't have had a flood of new receivers until well into 1917. Or as Chris said these were a procedure in dealing with new vs old parts. Either way I think these are different all together, could it be possible that 'H' was assembling rifles from the ground up a lot earlier than 1917? They seem similar Dresden produced Sterngewehrs from the 1914/15 period that did not bear the star only these don't bear the 'H'. Anything I've seen pass through 'H' had a K in the armorer's position on the buttplate as well. I thought about keeping a simple spreadsheet of the buttplate marking to see if anything else presents itself. Anyway that was just some thought vomit, not sure how inline with reality it is.

 

[Loewe]

I once owned an awesome 1914/15 WMO ridiculously traded it for a 98k, - worse I never took it apart to identify the BC which would be a great deal of help today... anyway has an "E" TR, WMO/1915 RR acceptance pattern, Erfurt style FP on receiver and bolt and the pictures i took in 2001-2004 do not show the stock acceptance as good as I would like, but I think it is probable Erfurt finished the rifle as the stock has C/P at wrist and lower under serial, which fits Erfurt/15 perfectly but nothing near WMO/15.

The presence of the letter atop receiver is often seen and in the case of "E" fits well with Erfurt acceptance patterns, though this is almost always with 98a production. The curiosity here is why was this passed to Erfurt? The RR is right for WMO/15, but the FP. bolt and stock scream Erfurt.

The "H" has a similar relevance, I am certain of this, but who exactly?? Hannover is as good a guess as any, better than most, but even as late as 1998 MW was clearly expressing this as speculation, mostly based upon later observations with pistols I believe.

Very interesting subject and I too think the H buttplates examples could give some context to time frame and progression.

 

[chrisftk]

This is anecdotal, but I have observed three variations of 'H' affiliated rifles. I would categorize them as follows:
1. Depot repairs, bears the 'H' on the buttplate
2. Depot builds where the old s/n has been struck and a new one applied. These bear the 'H' on the buttplate but not the receiver. Generally they seem to be a combination of new and salvaged parts retaining the original numbers. (Chris has an example like this, I recall it started life as a 1905 DWM or something)
3. 'H' Built Sterngewehrs

I often wonder if category 2 and 3 are related in the sense that these are earlier in the timeline considering they wouldn't have had a flood of new receivers until well into 1917. Or as Chris said these were a procedure in dealing with new vs old parts. Either way I think these are different all together, could it be possible that 'H' was assembling rifles from the ground up a lot earlier than 1917? They seem similar Dresden produced Sterngewehrs from the 1914/15 period that did not bear the star only these don't bear the 'H'. Anything I've seen pass through 'H' had a K in the armorer's position on the buttplate as well. I thought about keeping a simple spreadsheet of the buttplate marking to see if anything else presents itself. Anyway that was just some thought vomit, not sure how inline with reality it is.

I once owned an awesome 1914/15 WMO ridiculously traded it for a 98k, - worse I never took it apart to identify the BC which would be a great deal of help today... anyway has an "E" TR, WMO/1915 RR acceptance pattern, Erfurt style FP on receiver and bolt and the pictures i took in 2001-2004 do not show the stock acceptance as good as I would like, but I think it is probable Erfurt finished the rifle as the stock has C/P at wrist and lower under serial, which fits Erfurt/15 perfectly but nothing near WMO/15.

The presence of the letter atop receiver is often seen and in the case of "E" fits well with Erfurt acceptance patterns, though this is almost always with 98a production. The curiosity here is why was this passed to Erfurt? The RR is right for WMO/15, but the FP. bolt and stock scream Erfurt.

The "H" has a similar relevance, I am certain of this, but who exactly?? Hannover is as good a guess as any, better than most, but even as late as 1998 MW was clearly expressing this as speculation, mostly based upon later observations with pistols I believe.

Very interesting subject and I too think the H buttplates examples could give some context to time frame and progression.

Sam-- thanks again-

To your point, I've seen these rifles as similar to Sterngewehren, but not quite-- take mine for example-- even with the new "H" receiver there are still some salvaged components (bands/rear sight)-- While I've seen some Dresden with salvaged receivers, I thought they always used "new" small parts. But again, just anecdotal...

Paul-- I've got a similar "what was I thinking?!" story involving a nice Spandau 05... Though the biggest heartbreaker is that Sam once owned the consecutive 1916 Simson to mine, but he sold it years ago and not sure where it is today....

On the "E" rifle--- thinking out loud, but is it possible Erfurt had a depot/side operation under its auspices early on, that was later discontinued as production ramped up? Perhaps "H" took its place and any further side line Erfurt were Sterngeweheren? Or perhaps even the "E" was a prototype/early sterngewehr similar to the early star-less Dresden I have