EBAY auction for a 84/98 CRS 45

A

ardenne

Well-known member
Some weeks ago I have tried to bid for a 84/98 CRS 1945 with matching scabbard.

The auction closed at US$ 3,842 and of course I did not win.
This is the highest price I have never seen for a german bayonet and I'm asking if a similar quotation may be fine for an item like this also considering the good condition and the low number of bayonet realized in the first months of '45.

What do you think about?



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This is the description from the seller:
"This is an very rare, 1945 dated, WWII German Mauser K98, (SG 84/98), bayonet and scabbard.
This bayonet & scabbard have matching numbers (4232) and manufactures marks (45 crs) and are in new,
unissued, unused condition.They were produced in 1945 by Paul Weyersberg & Cie Waffenfabrik (CRS),
in Solingen, Germany. Both the bayonet & scabbard are typical of late war manufacture with rough grind marks and poor finishing.
The scabbard frog stud is slightly misaligned and the internal chape appears to have been hammered into place on one side at the throat.
The exterior finish on both items seems to be a very thin acid or phosphate wash.
The bayonet has various rough grind marks, rough bakelite grips secured by screw bolts.
The only other visible marking is a Waffenamt proof mark on the ball of the scabbard, eagle over WaA519 (?).

The bayonets produced in the last days of WWII in 1945 are very rare. This bayonet scabbard are in virtually new condition as
found at the end of the war. There are no noticeable marks from handling or storage.
It would be very difficult to find a much nicer example of this rare bayonet.
____________________________

Ardenne
 
I think that extreme, perhaps more than 100% more than what I would think was high. But I started collecting in the 80s, so......
 
Hambone said:
I think that extreme, perhaps more than 100% more than what I would think was high. But I started collecting in the 80s, so......
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Yes I agree; I start collect bayonet in 2011 and prices are increasing year by year but also now a price of US$ 250/300 allows to get a macthing bayonet in mint condition. This is a very crazy price.
 
One question Was it really sold for so large money? or it was only a declared buy from a friend to make higher prices? Certainly not a real price. But there are many rich people in USA.
Years ago was one 45crs in worser condition and without scabbard sold for 20Euro.
 
AndyB said:
One question Was it really sold for so large money? or it was only a declared buy from a friend to make higher prices? Certainly not a real price. But there are many rich people in USA.
Years ago was one 45crs in worser condition and without scabbard sold for 20Euro.
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This may be possible, but consider 10 different buyers and 25 offers. A lot of rich poeple that love german bayonet !!!!!!

Note the price increasing in 1' from $ 2,057 up to $ 3,842 / 6 Buyers
 
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I could think of alot more German stuff I could buy with $3842.57 then one bayonet. Two are three nice K98k, a nice G43, big down payment on a G41 and etc.
 
It was certainly fun to watch this auction and see the price go higher than probably anyone anticipated. Without question, someone paid an extreme amount of money for the piece but in reality how much is something this rare actually worth? I don't know the answer to that question but gentlemen these bayonets are extremely rare. Let's examine this for a moment.

Like Hambone I started seriously collecting the WWII S84/98 in the early 1980s. At that time there was of course no wide-spread internet nor was there really any significant interest in these pieces with most collectors. There were German dagger books but they only barely mentioned the lowly K98 Service Bayonet. Any mention was slight and rather nonspecific. It was exciting to look for these bayonets by maker name or code (even though we didn't know who some of the codes were) date, etc. In those days if the condition was acceptable I would purchase every matching numbers bayonet that I encountered that was below a certain price threshold. And that price was pretty low in the beginning! It went up over the years however.

Spin forward some years and you begin networking/comparing information with other likeminded collectors and the internet age and forums and groups like the Bayonet Collectors Network fire up and there is sort of a mini explosion of interest in the humble S84/98. In 1985, Mike Welser's 84/98 bayonet booklet was published which was the first real documentation of the late war rivet grip 44asw and the later 44sgx phosphate finish pieces. Welser also provided the first documentation of the 1945 dates. Prior to his research the conventional wisdom held that bayonet production had halted during the Fall of 1944 when the Kriegsmodell rifles were introduced. As an example, John Angolia's first dagger book unequivocally stated that no S84/98 bayonets were produced in 1945.

After reading Welser and his subsequent second edition I (and others) began compiling information on serial numbers and letter blocks for the late-war bayonets. Recording serial numbers from any/all sources possible including like minded researchers from all over the world as time went by. This eventually evolved into spreadsheets for all of the 1944 and 1945 serial number data that I could document. What has emerged from this research indicates that any 1945 dated bayonet is excruciatingly rare. In spite of some claims to the contrary, only two makers can be confirmed for 1945 and they are sgx (Hörster) and crs (Weyersberg). Although there have been reports of examples by Eickhorn (cof), E. Pack (cul), and WKC (cvl) to this date they remain unconfirmed. I personally believe that some of the larger firms like Eickhorn, WKC, and perhaps even Coppel MAY have continued production into very early 1945 but if that is the case, they retained the 1944 dating, serial number and letter block progression. I say this only because of it occurred during earlier years with some S84/98s as well as late K98k and P.38 production. More research is needed in this area.

Taking the above into account, I do not feel it is bombastic to label the 1945 dates as excruciatingly rare. In the spreadsheets there are currently less than 25 examples confirmed for 45sgx and less than 15 for 45crs. Keep in mind these numbers are almost all single pieces or mis-matches. A bayonet or scabbard confirmed but with different serial numbers. For 45sgx there are less than five confirmed matching examples. For 45crs the number is even smaller and that includes the example which just sold. These are very small numbers in my humble opinion.

While researching, you receive information all of the time that "so and so has a 45 date" or someone you talk to at a show or on-line says "sure I've got one of those at home, stone mint!" Really? I'd love get the details for my research and the book I'm writing, here's my email and telephone number please get back in touch with me. Funny how you never hear back from these folks ......

Some final thoughts on rarity ...... If you look at the big German edged weapon dealers' web sites how many SS daggers are for sale? In looking at just one site there are literally scores of daggers available. Every M1936 chained dagger has an asking price higher than what someone paid for this bayonet. Some pieces are listed as high as 7 to 9 thousand dollars. Many, many of the M1933 Man's daggers also have asking prices far above the realized price for this bayonet. How many SS daggers will be available for purchase at those kind of prices in Louisville on Thursday? Hundreds. How many SS daggers were manufactured? A million, several hundred thousand ....? I don't know the number but it is certainly large and apparently the surviving numbers are significant as well. The same can not be said for a 1945 dated S84/98. I understand that SS daggers Vs. S84/98 is an unusual comparison but I'm trying to make a point regarding rarity and pricing. I also understand there is a difference between desirability and rarity but this should be considered when pondering the outcome of the auction as well.

Which brings us back to ardenne's original question - Was the bayonet worth the realized price? What is the value of a matching 1945 date S84/98 in collectable condition? I don't know, but good or bad this certainly sets a benchmark. In the end, the bayonet brought more than I thought it would but apparently someone felt this was an opportunity to acquire a rare centerpiece collection item, matching and in remarkable condition. Perhaps even the best example in known existence. And at least one other bidder had similar thoughts which drove the price even higher in the closing seconds. My thoughts only ......
 
Excellent outline Slash, I agree with it very much, especially in regards to rarity of a matched set. As to references, you are right there too, John Walter's book (German Bayonet) was the first book that I remember getting in the early 1980's, it too said something along the lines you took, - the end of bayonet production in mid-late 1944. The section on the Sg84/98 III was rather small and error prone, but it was probably the first book, the first book that I knew about anyway, and with its mate, the German Rifle, was about the only books on the subject.
 
Loewe said:
Excellent outline Slash, I agree with it very much, especially in regards to rarity of a matched set. As to references, you are right there too, John Walter's book (German Bayonet) was the first book that I remember getting in the early 1980's, it too said something along the lines you took, - the end of bayonet production in mid-late 1944. The section on the Sg84/98 III was rather small and error prone, but it was probably the first book, the first book that I knew about anyway, and with its mate, the German Rifle, was about the only books on the subject.
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Many thanks Slash ans Loewe; I'm Italian and it is not possible to get similar information or any contribution for these arguments, of course in Italy and probably also in Europe.
I think that the huge interest on WWI German weapons I found in US forum derives from the U.S. bring back consuetude.

Ardenne
 
Thanks Loewe. You make a good point regarding John Walter's The German Bayonet. It was initially published in 1976 and at the time provided the most detailed information (at least in English) available on the S84/98. As you noted, it has a few mistakes and some details have proven to be erroneous over the years but it was the best and most detailed information available. Still have my well worn and annotated copy on the shelf along with his The German Rifle and other works.
 
I watched this auction with great interest too. This particular bayonet and scabbard were not only in mint condition, but rare enough that you can't guarantee you'll ever see one with your own eyes. In fact, probably won't.

In this case, rarity+ condition = high price. The big gun bidders set that price by all wanting it! Is this TOO high for what it is? I don't think so myself.
 
It was an interesting auction to watch, I thought it was going to top out around 17-18.

As a matter of interest with this bayonet, I asked the seller how he aquired this piece and received this message back from him:

"This 1945 bayonet was purchased in the 1970s at a small gun show in Iowa. I was broke at the time, but went on Saturday because it was close. There was a table there with mostly old guns and junk and 2 K98 bayonets. THEY WERE MATCHING AND CONSECUTIVLEY NUMBERED!!! That didn't mean much to me at the time and they were late war and rough appearing and I could only afford one, so bought just one (cheap!). Thought about it overnite and went back on Sunday to buy the other one, but it was gone. I have always wondered where that twin one went... Time to let it go before my heirs take them to the dump."

So there is a second one out there somewhere! This made me wonder if it would have sold for double that price had it had its consecutive mate?
 
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