GEW 98 with postwar refurb questions

[DWM1915]

Hello,

I recently picked up a WWI GEW 98 that went through a post-war refurb in the 1930's. I was trying to track down some of the markings and was hoping someone on the board might be able to help. It's a 1916 Danzig, bolt mismatch but otherwise matching, duffel cut, receiver and bolt are still in the white. The barrel has a B192 stamp on it, what does that mean? The bolt release also has a 1935 stamp on it, would they have date stamped this as well like the sling barrel band which is also marked 1935? On the underside of the stock is a 30 and X1? Thanks for any help, I've been searching old threads trying to track down the other marks but haven't found anything on these. Am I reading the Su mark as the gun went through Spandau for refurb? Why would the germans have been refurbing GEW 98's when 98K production was ramping up?

Thanks, Nick

 

[pzjgr]

Interesting rifle...lots of interesting markings...looking forward to Loewe's assesment on this one...

But to try to answer some of your questions...the 1935 on your bolt release and band are not dates...those parts would not be dated, they are just serial numbers...possibly originally numbered 19, then renumbered 35? The 19 looks pretty worn, while the 35 looks newer...

These Gew 98M's (a colloquialism by the way) were converted to the updated sights to shoot the new sS ammo which had a flatter trajectory, necessitating the new leaf. They were being converted prior to the adoption of the 98k, and early on, as 98k production could not keep up with demand early on....they needed to make do with what they had....

EWB marked too!

 

[DWM1915]

Interesting rifle...lots of interesting markings...looking forward to Loewe's assesment on this one...

But to try to answer some of your questions...the 1935 on your bolt release and band are not dates...those parts would not be dated, they are just serial numbers...possibly originally numbered 19, then renumbered 35? The 19 looks pretty worn, while the 35 looks newer...

These Gew 98M's (a colloquialism by the way) were converted to the updated sights to shoot the new sS ammo which had a flatter trajectory, necessitating the new leaf. They were being converted prior to the adoption of the 98k, and early on, as 98k production could not keep up with demand early on....they needed to make do with what they had....

EWB marked too!

Thanks pzjgr, interesting about the site replacement, I didn't realize ammo was the driver on the conversion process. The barrel band has the correct serial number (4 digit) for the gun on one side and the SuWw mark with 1935 under it on the other, I thought it was the date when the gun was refurb'd at Spandau but is that just a normal depot mark? I have some more pictures of the gun but it looks like my account is currently limited to posting 9.

thanks, nick

 

[pzjgr]

Loewe and some of the other guys are very knowledgeable on re-works, so they can say for sure on those marks...

I know you are limited to the numbers of picture you can post until you hit a certain number of posts, but I think a mod can remove that limit...I am sure guys would like to see more pics, plus I am sure your pics will help with the database on these, since you are getting pics of all the markings that are pertinent...

 

[Loewe]

Welcome to the forum Nick, been short on internet time the last day or so.... anyway PzjGr covered it well.

The BI-194 is the barrel steel maker and steel lot, Bismarckhütte in modern day Poland, the company was absorbed by Poland in 1920, though remained German owned, more or less, for a number of years. The Poles began to nationalize critical industries right before the war, but they gave German owned firms special attention... The owners brought some American partners in, though I doubt it helped much, the laws in Poland were extremely hostile to Germans, - and the nazis paid them double after 1939.

The 19-35 is probably as PzjGr states, such parts were not always re-numbered if replaced at a lower facility during the war. As for which depot did the work, I can't make much of your pictures, can you do better ones of the wrist and stock markings (all of them)? From what I can see of the depot marking I suspect it went through HZa Kassel (eagle/Ka/30), as the marking looks like their Weimar style eagle/Ka, over "30" which is typical of their work. Hard to be more specific with these pictures, - the barrel is factory original, the stock might be but I would have to see the acceptance pattern. Often these upgraded EWB's have a lot of original parts, some even have their original rear sights and finish, probably because they were taken out of their hiding place rather late and only needed upgrades. (PzjGr is right on that too, the upgrade was entirely due to ammunition, which once the S-patrone was exhausted, the sS patrone became standard, prior to that, 1918-1929, German rifles were dual compliant.)

The reason the German Army relied upon these rifles as long as they did is because Kar.98k production was totally inadequate for the expansion the nazis had in mind, - enormous amounts were spent early on, very little of which went to rifles. A new and shiny Army the nazis had in mind need barracks, airfields and an airforce, - that is where most of the money went at first (that and autarky programs), - the foundation of a large modern Army. Besides, other factors were in play too, - for one German industry had been almost completely de-militarized by 1924, and you do not re-militarize overnight. It takes resources, money and above all time...

A modern and effective military is only possible with a great industrial base and strong economy, - Germany had both though artificially suppressed. It had one of the strongest industrial bases in the world at the time, the Entente couldn't cripple it short of perpetual occupation, as they did in the Ruhr for a time… and Germany's economy was only artificially suppressed 1919-1933, once Hitler lifted those artificial controls, Germany was going to be the central state-power in Europe, easily outstripping France (largest Army in the Europe, though in decline due to political chaos- leftists) and England (still an economic powerhouse at the time- though it too suffering significantly from their politics). This fact played a significant role in both World Wars, - Germany was eventually going to be the dominate power in Central Europe, by the turn of the 20th century it already was economically and both wars were in part a response to this fact.

As both Germany (1933-1939) and the United States (1917 and again in 1940-1941) proved so clearly, great militaries come from a strong and powerful industry and economy (freedom) and countries that maintain powerful militaries only do so on the back of this foundation. (the USSR was a joke militarily and what it achieved in the industrial field was built upon German and American technical knowledge and help 1920-1945, - the highly acclaimed "victories” were only possible with American logistics and resources... the Red Army was incapable of "offensive" operations without American lend lease, even with it it killed more of its own men than Germans... - nazi Germany did it on the back of German industry and nearly lost the war in 1942, before German industrialist pulled their chestnuts out of the fire when Hitler gave them some measure of freedom 1942-1944)

 

[DWM1915]

Thanks Loewe for the welcome and the background information, very interesting! Sorry about the pics, the kids absconded with the camera and I can't find it at the moment so I'm reduced to my phone camera. Here are some additional pictures of the stock markings, the stock and handguard are both numbered same as the barrel/receiver, I believe they are original as they have the imperial proofs but would like to get your opinion. The takedown disk and one of the under screws look like they have one of the later depot eagle marks on them, otherwise everything is matched and imperial proofed. One oddity, the cleaning rod is in the white and imperial proofed but serial numbered 37 instead of 73, I'm guessing that's just a mixup when they were numbering the parts? Gun is duffel cut but has been repaired and seems solid. I think what got me on the gun was how much history went along with it, I'm thinking a mid-1916 production date with the "bb" suffix so 2+ years of service in WWI, pulled into EWB use after the war and then refurb'd for use by Army before WWII, the gun has been through a lot of German history! I'm still surprised receiver and bolt are in the white, most of the post-war reworks I've seen have been blued.

Thanks, Nick

 

[Loewe]

I do believe this is the original stock it left the factory with. Typically the wrist acceptance is the best to determine this, but most known Danzig wartime rifles have the C/B along the bottom of the buttstock and the fonts are good for a Danzig of this period. The acceptance pattern under the cypher is irregular and although the inspector they represent are consistent in some ways (the same 6 or more are repeated over and over but in no apparent order) you can not determine a "range" using them. The opposite is true of the right receiver where you can roughly range a rifle using them. This is almost certainly due to the manufacturing process, where the barreled-receiver and bolt are mated early and fireproofed, - the stocks being one of the last things marked I suspect the variations here are due to issues in the manufacturing process. (the acceptance for the manufacture of the stock itself is consistent due to its not depending on other components for acceptance - the final acceptance patterns are often difficult to decipher because they depend on the collection of parts passing inspection. At least that is the way I look at it...)

Anyway, I do believe this is the factory original stock, though the take down is an interwar addition. A rifle this early wouldn't have a take down installed originally. Danzig introduced the grips a few blocks earlier than this rifle, the take down began later during 1916, around the "mm" block or later. This stock has everything you would expect for its range, except the take down, which is depot marked, HZa Spandau probably made the part and HZa Kassel probably installed it, HZa Spandau made many parts, even a few barrels have been identified.

Factory mix up is possible, so is mismatched, but either way, mismatched is mismatched and factory error speculation is taken too far on the internet forums imo, - an easy excuse for an owner that generally doesn't carry a huge amount of weight to a knowledgeable buyer. (not directed at you, just these threads about factory errors are often wishful thinking and give new collectors the wrong perspective imo... mismatched is mismatched).

Yes, the rifle was hidden after the war, once they disbanded the EWB the rifles were placed in hiding (they only turned in the worst rifles). Ernst Röhm was a player in all these things, amongst his numerous talents (military adventurer, political intriguer, and nazi recruiter- even converting German communists to the nazi ranks, which considering the ideology of nazism and communism isn't too hard to understand, in every important way they are the same thing, - hostility to capitalism and supremacy of the state over the individual) he was also an arms smuggler after he got out of the Army. As he was instrumental in arming the EWB, these rifles were probably hidden by his associates, accomplices or supporters and taken out after the nazi rise to power. I think this is why so many SS Gew98-98k conversions are Amberg made rifles (most EWB marked rifles are Amberg rifles), when the nazis gained power some of these rifles found their way into SS hands due to the fact Röhm was one of the main players in arming and hiding the rifles the EWB were issued with.

 

[DWM1915]

Thanks Loewe for all the information, really interesting. I didn't realize Rohm was involved with the EWB, I thought they were disbanded by the time the National Socialists and SA became more of a political player (although great source of recruits I'm sure). Even with the mismatched bolt and cleaning rod I'm pretty happy with the rifle, I was looking for a nice interwar example and this one certainly shows a lot of history. Tougher nut will be my next purchase, a nice pre-war K98, they seem tough to come by. I did have a quick question about the marks on the buttplate, are those marks from the arsenal rework in the 30's or a WWI visit to a depot?

Thanks, Nick

 

[Loewe]

Nick, This was before his involvement with the NS movement and SA, - he was in the German Army (Provisional Reichwehr, under Col. Epp) at the time and involved with arming the EWB legally (under the authority of the German government, which armed all the EW in Germany, they existed throughout Germany, not just in Bavaria - Bavaria's is most famous because it was the largest, lasted the longest and resisted being disbanded... plus most EW stuff that exists today is associated with the EWB.)

Your marking on the buttplate is a WWI depot marking, it passed through the depot at Danzig (1) and the "A" is the armorer who did the work or accepted (responsible) it. It isn't clear if the Arsenal at Danzig was the arms center that did the work, could be, but these arms collection centers were depots of one sort or another, - Danzig had several, an artillery depot (which they might have been involved, some were), ammunition depot, or whether it was a place set up special for the task... all we know is the "1" is for Danzig's arms collection center, it could have been any number of facilities that existed there. (eastern Germany was not exactly a bustling place for skilled metal workers... so more than likely it was one of the two state facilities already in existence- the Arsenal or artillery depot)

Thanks Loewe for all the information, really interesting. I didn't realize Rohm was involved with the EWB, I thought they were disbanded by the time the National Socialists and SA became more of a political player (although great source of recruits I'm sure). Even with the mismatched bolt and cleaning rod I'm pretty happy with the rifle, I was looking for a nice interwar example and this one certainly shows a lot of history. Tougher nut will be my next purchase, a nice pre-war K98, they seem tough to come by. I did have a quick question about the marks on the buttplate, are those marks from the arsenal rework in the 30's or a WWI visit to a depot?

Thanks, Nick