Mike is engaged in restoration for a living. My request is that if claims or advice is going to be posted that it be cited with authority or sources, such as you've seen in the posts on this thread.
Leather care
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Mike is engaged in restoration for a living. My request is that if claims or advice is going to be posted that it be cited with authority or sources, such as you've seen in the posts on this thread.
Hercules
Senior Member
Old Leather
This is an interesting thread. I took one of my lesser slings and I put Pecards on it according to the directions that came with the jar. It seems to have really improved the flexibility of the sling as well as took away the dry appearence. It would seem to me that if you did nothing the sling would become worthless much more quickly. I am not sure why all the discussion on this. The Pecards did not change the color/appearence of the sling other than it did not look dry and stiff. Also, I have nothing to gain financially other than the loss of my leather from dry rot if I do not do something eventually in my opinion. The sling seems better with Pecards. So, what I am I really missing here?
Brian
This is an interesting thread. I took one of my lesser slings and I put Pecards on it according to the directions that came with the jar. It seems to have really improved the flexibility of the sling as well as took away the dry appearence. It would seem to me that if you did nothing the sling would become worthless much more quickly. I am not sure why all the discussion on this. The Pecards did not change the color/appearence of the sling other than it did not look dry and stiff. Also, I have nothing to gain financially other than the loss of my leather from dry rot if I do not do something eventually in my opinion. The sling seems better with Pecards. So, what I am I really missing here?
Brian
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Brian, my observations as well. I use Pecards too, sparingly though. I've got helmets that I put some Pecards on around the leather rim edge and on the chinstraps probably 15-25 years ago. Nothing changed much other than the flaking and drying stopped, the color is about the same.
The school of thought against Pecards is that some of the chemicals in it will hasten deterioration of the leather by affecting the fibers in the leather itself. I've busted my behind trying to find some definitive evidence of this, or scientific analysis, or a study beyond opinions. Much of the internet forum discussion on this is not like this thread, it's just the parroting of what someone said someone said, like the comments of people who sell Pecards (which I posted in this thread). I put more weight on the opinions of people like Mike, professional (and I mean professional) museum curators who have experience in this area and want to do what is best, regardless of what Pecards or anyone else thinks.
I think that until someone can do a definitive study, here is where I am: Best to do nothing and store properly (light, temp., humidity controlled, minimal handling). If you are going to handle and flex things, and in some other instances, such as flaking and cracking wear, a light amount of Pecards may retard drying and make leather more flexible, less subject to wear, flaking, and damage. I've got a tub of Pecards that I use. I think I bought five tubs of it in the early to mid 90s. I gave three of those to friends. Of the two I've got, the one I use is about half full.
The school of thought against Pecards is that some of the chemicals in it will hasten deterioration of the leather by affecting the fibers in the leather itself. I've busted my behind trying to find some definitive evidence of this, or scientific analysis, or a study beyond opinions. Much of the internet forum discussion on this is not like this thread, it's just the parroting of what someone said someone said, like the comments of people who sell Pecards (which I posted in this thread). I put more weight on the opinions of people like Mike, professional (and I mean professional) museum curators who have experience in this area and want to do what is best, regardless of what Pecards or anyone else thinks.
I think that until someone can do a definitive study, here is where I am: Best to do nothing and store properly (light, temp., humidity controlled, minimal handling). If you are going to handle and flex things, and in some other instances, such as flaking and cracking wear, a light amount of Pecards may retard drying and make leather more flexible, less subject to wear, flaking, and damage. I've got a tub of Pecards that I use. I think I bought five tubs of it in the early to mid 90s. I gave three of those to friends. Of the two I've got, the one I use is about half full.
Brian,
I would redirect you to the articles in post #17. They list a number of problems with leather dressings based on long-term studies. It is important to focus on the long-term effects rather than the immediate/short-term effects if preservation is the goal.
Craig,
The articles listed in post #17 reference a number of research studies dating from the 1930’s to the 1980’s in the footnotes. They should be available if you want to read them in their entirety and should contain more detailed scientific analysis.
Hercules
Senior Member
Dry Rot
I would venture to guess dry rot would have negative effects on leather as well. Putting all the antique leather in a vacuum sealed environment is not an option. MJN have you tried Pecards or are you relying on articles alone? It has been said that it lasted this long without anything done to it. That is true, but it (old leather) looks like crap in some cases and in some cases will not last much longer any way. So, what I am I missing here? Regardless thanks for the info.
Brian
I would venture to guess dry rot would have negative effects on leather as well. Putting all the antique leather in a vacuum sealed environment is not an option. MJN have you tried Pecards or are you relying on articles alone? It has been said that it lasted this long without anything done to it. That is true, but it (old leather) looks like crap in some cases and in some cases will not last much longer any way. So, what I am I missing here? Regardless thanks for the info.
Brian
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Brian,
Pecards and other leather dressings are not designed to restore leather rot, and apparently show no effect at preventing it. They are just conditioners advertised to soften and “protect” leather. They are composed of oils, or oil and wax mixtures, and do not contain consolidants that have the ability to strengthen rotted areas. Treatments for rot involve consolidants (like Klucel G) and unfortunately leather dressings can hinder the application of these materials.
I have never used Pecards. The evidence against its use is enough for me to avoid it. Museums all over the world have treatment reports dating back many decades on thousands of leather objects, and conservators and scientists are able to observe first-hand the long-term effects of various treatments over the years. Arguing a case for leather dressings has become an uphill battle based on this information.
Mike
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The only thing I would submit would be that the anti-leather dressing studies invariably involve mink oil, neatsfoot oil, saddle soap, etc., old products which are well known to be destructive and irreversible. I've not seen a study involving Pecards which I can recall, and I've reviewed alot of studies. That is not to say that Pecards is not bad, just that I've not seen the studies identifying it as such and why. I've seen plenty of myths about Pecards though, that the Smithsonian and various other museums use it, etc.
On internet forums you'd be surprised at how much hogwash is perpetuated due to people simply not requiring citation to authority or due to censorship or both.
On internet forums you'd be surprised at how much hogwash is perpetuated due to people simply not requiring citation to authority or due to censorship or both.
I think maybe a reason Pecards is hard to find mentioned is that the name does not refer to a specific substance. Because it’s a trade name, its formula can change at any time and therefore can become tricky to discuss specifically in a formal study unless the formula is known at the time. That's my guess anyway.
In articles addressing the detrimental effects of adding oil to leather to increase its flexibility, it seems that they are lumping all leather dressings together under the assumption that their oil components are similar. I'm sure more information will come to light in the future as more research is done.
gew8805
Well-known member
The biggest problem with any substance used to "restore" leather is over application. The old saying "if a little is good then more must be better" leads down the road to certain damage no matter what is used. I use pure neatsfoot oil on new items that I have made for sale to reenactors and have never had any trouble with it. I also use it on everyday use items and so does the professional harness maker that taught me. But I am careful with it's application, too much will damage the leather, the same is true of saddle soap. I will keep quiet on Pecards other than to say that Pecards of all types does contain petroleum products and, while the makers say it evaporates after carrying the beneficial portions of the product into the leather, it still is not something that I want to recommend for a collectable item.
Antique collectable leather goods need to be judged on a case by case basis but remember that a 100+ year old piece of leather equipment, both military and civilian, saw the use of neatsfoot oil when new and probably throughout it's working life, there is no doubt about it and may be the reason that the item is still with us today.
Antique collectable leather goods need to be judged on a case by case basis but remember that a 100+ year old piece of leather equipment, both military and civilian, saw the use of neatsfoot oil when new and probably throughout it's working life, there is no doubt about it and may be the reason that the item is still with us today.
You bring up a good point about how new leather and everyday use leather should be treated differently than aged leather. I guess a lot of people look at how new leather is treated, and assume that those treatments are okay for use on aged leather. Since the chemistry of leather is changed by exposure and deterioration, aged leather is going to have different needs.
I imagine that many types of oils and fatty substances have been used historically besides neatsfoot. I know oils are used in the process of tanning, but I believe they are used as an emulsion which is quite different than applying pure oil directly to leather. At any rate, it seems some of the research studies indicate that adding additional oils or dressings to leather has no significant effect on slowing the rate of deterioration, and can sometimes cause faster deterioration. What’s known for certain is that deterioration can be slowed by reducing exposure to light and heat and avoiding fluctuations in relative humidity, to name a few things.
Something else to consider is that we’ve been discussing leather as if all leathers are the same, but the word “leather” is generic like “metal” or “wood”. I assume that different animal skins have different properties just like iron and copper, or pine and mahogany, and probably have different conservation needs. Add to that variations in tanning and finishing processes, variations in substances added by owners and collectors over the years, and differences in environmental exposure and you can see that it gets complicated when trying to figure out the proper way to preserve something.
gew8805
Well-known member
MJN, as with everything else that you have said, you are exactly right.
We all have a tendency to look for some magic cure to fix a problem and in this case there is no magic fix, especially when it comes to preserving antique leather. Avoid sunlight, humidity fluctuation and high temperatures.
Preservation of historic leather, including saddlery - MGNSW
This how to guide looks at practical steps you can take to ensure the protection of historic leather objects, including saddlery.
mgnsw.org.au