Need help ID'ing Scope on a K98

[CPTJackO]

My father passed away a few years ago. He left me with a few souvenirs from his service in the Army and Air Force. The most interesting has been from his time in the Army at the end of WW2. He gave me a beautiful K98 rifle with scope. He said he used to use it for hunting while stationed at the Neuschwanstein castle in Germany as part of the Army of Occupation. He (only a Sergeant) at the time, was in charge of this beautiful castle. So he says anyway. He took me there as a 17 year old and showed me the whole place like it was yesterday for him. I believe everything he told me, he wasn't one to brag much. Anyway, the rifle was easy to identify, but the scope has been quite difficult. I am hoping someone can help. It is a Carl Zeisse scope with no visible serial number, but clearly mounted perfectly for the K98. Can anyone help me to identify this scope and it's origins, whether military or civilian after war? Thanks

 

[John Strunk]

I believe the rifle your Dad gave you, is generally called "a cigarette Gun" and American Serviceman would trade Cigarettes for them with German Gunsmiths.

I believe the scope mounted on it is actually for a German Machine gun (I'm not sure if it's a MG 34 or MG 42).

I can actually only marvel at the unreal workmanship of these German Gunsmiths who would totally hand make a mount and fit the mount, scope and rifle together....and make it work?

Most collectors overlook these, whereas, a handful of others collectors seek them out and collect them.

 

[CPTJackO]

Thanks!

I believe the rifle your Dad gave you, is generally called "a cigarette Gun" and American Serviceman would trade Cigarettes for them with German Gunsmiths.

I believe the scope mounted on it is actually for a German Machine gun (I'm not sure if it's a MG 34 or MG 42).

I can actually only marvel at the unreal workmanship of these German Gunsmiths who would totally hand make a mount and fit the mount, scope and rifle together....and make it work?

Most collectors overlook these, whereas, a handful of others collectors seek them out and collect them.

So it is not a K98, and the scope is probably from a MG type 34 or 42 maybe. Wow, that is too funny. Makes sense I guess, since he had it while in Germany after the war. Thanks for your insight. Jack

 

[Absolut]

John Strunk is incorrect, this is not a MG scope. It is a Zeiss G.Z. scope. There was the G.Z.I, G.Z.II and G.Z.III, those were the very first (civilian) scopes made by Zeiss and to my knowledge date pre WWI. They were individually fitted by gunsmiths.

 

[CPTJackO]

Thanks also!

John Strunk is incorrect, this is not a MG scope. It is a Zeiss G.Z. scope. There was the G.Z.I, G.Z.II and G.Z.III, those were the very first (civilian) scopes made by Zeiss and to my knowledge date pre WWI. They were individually fitted by gunsmiths.

It is funny because after his post I started searching for MG Scopes and then saw the Prisamatic scopes that you are mentioning above. I found the same info as you said, so it is nice to see the confirmation from you. Great info. I love the way they mounted it to rifle and sits perfectly well on top. I have yet to shoot with the scope mounted, but may try sometime. The rifle is so well balanced even with the scope. Thanks again.

 

[Mikegermany]

"Absolut" is absolutely right. These scopes where made from around 1905- 1913.

Can you give some more info and if it is possible more pics on the rifle?

 

[moconfed]

Your rifle IS (or was, depending on how you look at it) a 98k. The GIs would trade cartons of cigarettes to gunsmiths for modified (sportered) 98k rifles after the war, hence the name 'cigarette rifle'.
Yours just happened to be mounted with a scope that's rare as hen's teeth.

 

[Absolut]

I also don't agree with moconfed that this rifle is a 98k rifle. There is too little shown of the rifle to be able to tell for sure if it once was a military K98k rifle which was sportered, or if it might even had been a civilian made Mauser action. I would appreciate it, if you would share a few additional pictures showing some more details of the rifle, and especially of the unique scope bases.

Edit, @moconfed: While these scopes are not very common, they do appear quite often for sale. Check Google, you will be amazed by the number of results you get. They were especially popular with British gunsmiths.

 

[Old_glass]

As you probably know, manufacturers in those days liked to have unique names for different models of their products as this helped to reduce errors and made telegraphic communications easier. According to an old Zeiss catalogue page I have, this model was called the "Telekipp" and was intended for use on double rifles and drillings. They would also have been suitable for straight pull bolt actions, but that is just my conclusion.

Your scope should be marked on the side below the Zeiss logo with "G.Z.IV" As I understand it, that stood for "Gewehr Zeilfernrohr" or "Rifle Scope" (or "telescopic sight" if you prefer), and the Roman numeral was the specific model. The "IV" or fourth model was not made after WWI AFAIK.

The G.Z.III. or "Teleweit" had the eyepiece in line with the mounting bar (or stub in the case of yours) I believe the idea was that this provided more clearance for a bolt handle; you'll notice that yours has the eyepiece set lower than that which would suit a drilling or double rifle with no bolt handle. I have never seen a photo of a G.Z.IV. mounted on a bolt action rifle and your rifle appears to be an ex-military one - I'm no expert on Mausers though - so I would guess it was put together by a gunsmith to sell or trade to servicemen like your father.

Possibly the scope and mounts were removed from a hunting rifle years before when more modern scopes became available and just "in the drawer" so to speak.

There is a slight possibility the scope was fitted to that rifle for military use, or that it saw military use, in either WWI or WWII. We'd need to see more and better photos to be able to make a more educated guess about that.

Is the stock the one that was on the rifle when your father got it? It looks rather crudely made for a Mauser sporter; in fact the filler in the cross bolt hole suggests it is a cut down military stock. Of course those trading with the occupation troops didn't bother to make anything better than it had to be to find a buyer; or did your father "sporterize" the rifle?

The paint tended to flake off these scopes if they got damp and the aluminum alloy oxidized, which has happened here. Your father or someone has sanded or steel wooled the body to improve the look of it I think.

Someone presumably sanded or ground off the serial number and the other markings below the Zeiss logo which is a pity. Is that area dead flat or can you feel a bit of a depression there with your fingertip?

If you can post some more and better photos of the action, bases and scope, especially closeups, that would help.

I think those mounts were made by a company called "Miller & Val. Greiss". At least I have seen other GZ scopes in that same case so marked. I believe sometimes seen as be "Miller u. Val. Greiß" also. From what I see online, they were based in Munich, capital of Bavaria, and of course not far from where your father was.

What kind of reticule does this scope have and what is marked on the range scale behind the objective lens?

 

[moconfed]

I also don't agree with moconfed that this rifle is a 98k rifle. There is too little shown of the rifle to be able to tell for sure if it once was a military K98k rifle which was sportered, or if it might even had been a civilian made Mauser action. I would appreciate it, if you would share a few additional pictures showing some more details of the rifle, and especially of the unique scope bases.

Edit, @moconfed: While these scopes are not very common, they do appear quite often for sale. Check Google, you will be amazed by the number of results you get. They were especially popular with British gunsmiths.

The rifle does appear, to me, to be a sportered military action, but most definitely requires more images to be certain. Very interesting scope, a Google search did show several! I've never seen one personally, but will add to the watch for list in the future!

 

[Absolut]

I own two of them, one is a G.Z. I with the double claw mount which is offset at the rear (Gew98 sniper style). They are interesting, but rather odd constructions.