Pair of late-war AC320 skeleton frogs

[KroniK]

For your consideration a pair of AC320 frogs.
I first saw these types of frogs in the awesome post by Slash, so I wanted to show some to you in detail.

I love the look, they are very Frankensteinish.

 

[pwcosol]

Very nice frogs indeed! Was never able to find one of these except a tattered example which just didn't get it, so let it go. Don't know which of the two pictured I like the most, so guess it will be a tie...

 

[AndyB]

Nice one skeleton frogs, made from rest of belts or remains of leather equipment.

 

[Aaron]

Great pictures! Lots of great details on these. What does AC320 mean?

 

[pwcosol]

Great pictures! Lots of great details on these. What does AC320 mean?

OP's mention of "AC 320" is referencing Anthony Carter's (initially) two booklet publications addressing Bayonet Belt Frogs of the world. This later resulted in a combined, revised and expanded hardbound copy. Carter initiated assigning numbers to each frog illustrated and described in these books. Often collectors of frogs will provide a "Anthony Carter" reference number from his books to provide a additional resource for information. Unfortunately, the author passed on some years ago and none of his outstanding works were ever reprinted to my knowledge.

 

[AndyB]

Similar description are allways problematic, it could be help for collectors but has no link to any period designation.

 

[Slash]

Similar description are allways problematic, it could be help for collectors but has no link to any period designation.

This is a good point. The booklets were published in 1983. The revised/expanded hardcover in 1997. All are long out of print. There is an entire generation of collectors who have most probably found these book inaccessible.

They are late-war skeleton frogs constructed from repurposed leather.

Hopefully they will never acquire a ridiculous nickname like "Gray Ghost" or "Black Widow." Scrappy Skeleton .......

 

[grimlin13]

Hopefully they will never acquire a ridiculous nickname like "Gray Ghost" or "Black Widow." Scrappy Skeleton .......

Slash`s "Scrappy Skeleton". Now that you said it, watch it catch on.

 

[KroniK]

Well, the simple truth is that I knew they had a 'name', but had belt frog in my mind.
Couldn't remember skeleton frog, so the only thing I had to go on was the designation

Anyway, on the flip side, when seeing an exotic frog I always to the post by Slash.
But searching on the number designation never turns up anything, so at least it's findable now.
I'll update the title for future visibility.

I'm on the lookout for Anthony Carter's belt frog book, but I guess from Europe it's an even harder find.
Is the info in it still up to date?

 

[pwcosol]

A.C.'s BBFW is a singular work in that no one else has written anything similar. Back in the day, if one collected bayonets in general, Watts & White's "The Bayonet Book" was a must for any serious bayonet collector. They would often refer to a W & W "No. XXX" photo/description in their book as well. At the peak, a nice copy of W & W was bringing up to $300. ! More similar to A.C.'s BBFW is Kiesling's "Bayonets of the World" four-volume set presented in line-drawing format (same used in "Jantzen's Notebook"). After his passing, Kiesling's set was fortunately reprinted in combined form. IMHO, all these books are still relevant for the aspiring to advanced collector...

 

[Aaron]

This is a good point. The booklets were published in 1983. The revised/expanded hardcover in 1997. All are long out of print. There is an entire generation of collectors who have most probably found these book inaccessible.

They are late-war skeleton frogs constructed from repurposed leather.

Hopefully they will never acquire a ridiculous nickname like "Gray Ghost" or "Black Widow." Scrappy Skeleton .......

This is the first time I've even heard of this book, and I already want a copy now. I would only want the volumes that cover WW2 German so probably easier to find than a full set.

 

[Aaron]

OP's mention of "AC 320" is referencing Anthony Carter's (initially) two booklet publications addressing Bayonet Belt Frogs of the world. This later resulted in a combined, revised and expanded hardbound copy. Carter initiated assigning numbers to each frog illustrated and described in these books. Often collectors of frogs will provide a "Anthony Carter" reference number from his books to provide a additional resource for information. Unfortunately, the author passed on some years ago and none of his outstanding works were ever reprinted to my knowledge.

Thanks! Is AC319 just a difference in the riveting? How many versions of the late skeleton frogs are recorded in that book?

 

[pwcosol]

There was no separate volume for German bayonets. I think the two published booklets were split alphabetically (first half in Vol 1 & second half Vol 2) of the countries represented. Below are posted the Table of Contents for the final edition and Introduction how this all came about:

 

[mauser99]

For your consideration a pair of AC320 frogs.
I first saw these types of frogs in the awesome post by Slash, so I wanted to show some to you in detail.

I love the look, they are very Frankensteinish.

I see no benefit to these over a standard frog as far as time and materials other than the fact it looks like they were cutting up belts and such to make these.. I guess when you dont have to pay the help it doesnt matter how much time it takes. Possibly made out of old obsolete enemy equipment ??

 

[AndyB]

Should be looked period pictures with wearing similar frog, but i assume it should late war period, even Volksturm or other security branches. Possible that many were made from rest or captured material.

 

[Sir Mortimer]

This is a good point. The booklets were published in 1983. The revised/expanded hardcover in 1997. All are long out of print. There is an entire generation of collectors who have most probably found these book inaccessible.

"A collectors guide to german bayonet belt frogs 1825-1945" by Roy Williams does quite a good job for me. I don't own the Carter books for frogs or WW1 bayonets (yet), but most of the time it's "variation of AC xyz". When you take out the "variations" the book becomes a booklet. On the other hand, the book has lots of period photos and photos of the real deal, not drawings leaving some room for imagination.

 

[Aaron]

"A collectors guide to german bayonet belt frogs 1825-1945" by Roy Williams does quite a good job for me. I don't own the Carter books for frogs or WW1 bayonets (yet), but most of the time it's "variation of AC xyz". When you take out the "variations" the book becomes a booklet. On the other hand, the book has lots of period photos and photos of the real deal, not drawings leaving some room for imagination.

Does V1 and V2 cover different topics or is it just the range of years split between the two books?

 

[pwcosol]

Dang... I forgot to even mention Roy's books (I have the three volume set). They kind of came onto the scene later than everybody else and due to size, had them on the upper book shelf. Yes, he does show photos which are adequate and would work in conjunction with other resources. Can only recall one or maybe two instances when a collector
referenced either a bayonet or frog from them though. There are a number of bayonet/frog books on Ebay but found no listings for RW's books at all...

 

[grimlin13]

Here`s vols. 1 and 2.

Collectors Book German Bayonets 1680 1945 by Williams Roy - AbeBooks

The Collectors Book of German Bayonets 1680-1945 Parts One & Two (Both signed) by Williams,Roy and a great selection of related books, art and collectibles available now at AbeBooks.com.

www.bing.com

 

[Slash]

Thanks! Is AC319 just a difference in the riveting? How many versions of the late skeleton frogs are recorded in that book?

Two versions are recorded in the Carter book. His designations AC319 and AC320. Both of yours are 320. The 319 has two lines of stitching (top & bottom) to the lower loop. It also has only a single rivet centered at the same location. The 320 has only one line of stitching (bottom) and two rivets. The 319 example has also had the retention strap removed along the sides of the body.

Roy Williams' book includes photographs of six examples of the AC320 (two of which are from my collection). Roy labeled one example as a AC319 but this is erroneous. I only use the AC designations here as this is how they are listed in the books.

I have never seen an AC319.