Possible Fake K98 Identification

[TomC]

Hello I'm new to this forum and I've read around but please let me know if this is the incorrect place to post this. I am interested in purchasing this rifle from an old timer that I work with. I am sure he did not fake it but he believed its real and from what seen in the research I've done is that this rifle is a either a fake or a highly unlikely original example. Either way I would like to know because I would like to do this man the favor of figuring this out. I work at a shooting range but my knowledge of historical firearms is minimal.

From what I've seen doing a little reading on Ian McCallum's (Forgotten Weapons) website, is that the waffenamts on the left of the receiver should not have visible swastikas and should have a WaAXXX number under the stamps.

There are correct looking waffenamts on the right of the receiver but there are 3 stamps and all have 135 beneath them and I know Chinese reproductions of these stamps are on eBay. I have been lead to believe this is a red flag as well.

Also I know the bolt isn't matching not sure of its origins and I really don't care for that. I'm also aware the electro pencil marking on the receiver is obviously not original.

I apologize for the image quality the forum wouldn't allow for larger files to be submitted.

I would would really appreciate any help.

 

[Bob in OHIO]

German made... Russian reworked from what little the pics reveal

 

[M1903A3]

From what I can see the markings all look good. Several of the PDF files won’t load for me. The marking on the left side of the barrel by the serial number SHOULD have a swastika below it, this is the “firing proof”. The three stamps on the right of the receiver are inspection stamps, and look correct also.

From the look of the rifle I suspect it is a “Russian capture” which means that it was captured by the Russians at some point and then heavily reworked by them. The bluing of the receiver looks to me to be their type, heavy and thick and almost black. I can’t see the stock picture or the bolt pictures but electro-pencil markings are another hallmark of Russian captured K98s. If I could see more of the photos I could be sure but like I said there are four or five I can’t see at all. Perhaps you could try to re-upload the pictures NOT as PDF files but as JPEGs?

SO it’s legit but not really super collectible as it is not anywhere near original, as made condition. Collectors don’t really value them highly for that reason, and an “as made” K98 will have much higher collector value.

Many people use R/C K98s as “shooters” which gives them a K98 that they can use and not harm value. Similarly they are used by re-enactors because they can get it dirty and wet and not wreck an all-matching gun.

Welcome and I hope this helps your friend!

David


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[heavy_mech]

..I suspect it is a “Russian capture” which means that it was captured by the Russians at some point and then heavily reworked by them.

For sure. It's also a more recent import because of the 'dot matrix' import marking requirements. Great for reenactors, shooters or someone who wants to hunt with a K98. Not so hot for most collectors however although you'll find a small group of rabid aficionados over on Gunboards.

 

[TomC]

Response to M1903A3

From what I can see the markings all look good. Several of the PDF files won’t load for me. The marking on the left side of the barrel by the serial number SHOULD have a swastika below it, this is the “firing proof”. The three stamps on the right of the receiver are inspection stamps, and look correct also.

From the look of the rifle I suspect it is a “Russian capture” which means that it was captured by the Russians at some point and then heavily reworked by them. The bluing of the receiver looks to me to be their type, heavy and thick and almost black. I can’t see the stock picture or the bolt pictures but electro-pencil markings are another hallmark of Russian captured K98s. If I could see more of the photos I could be sure but like I said there are four or five I can’t see at all. Perhaps you could try to re-upload the pictures NOT as PDF files but as JPEGs?

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Thank you all for the quick help. I'm going to fiddle with the files to try to re upload them, I have them in HD just can't upload hi-res pics to the site.

Also, when I said electro pencil I meant the dot import mark on the left of the rifle below the rear sight. The bolts number is etched, sorry for the confusion.

I am just wondering as to why the proof marks on the left of the firearm do not have the WaAxxx number as many have. Also what the three waffenamts on the right of the firearm, all with the same inspection number beneath, tell me about the rifle. I've been lead to believe they only receive more than one waffenamt if the rifle was brought to a depot to be repaired. If so all three numbers would be unlikely to be the same. I could be completely wrong, I know different factories had different methods at different times. Like I said I'm new and I'm just being paranoid about this rifle.

I forgot to mention the cleaning rod is missing but it has a cut out for it and I've tried a german bayonet and it locks onto the lug very securely.

Also if anyone has an approximate price range I would appreciate it, sellers asking $450. Also I found the front band isn't matching and again the bolt isn't matching but he will let me test fire it. I would say overall wood is a 7.5/10 and the receiver and barrel 6/10, 10 being off the production line.

 

[heavy_mech]

Also, when I said electro pencil I meant the dot import mark on the left of the rifle below the rear sight. The bolts number is etched, sorry for the confusion.

Actually what you see on the bolt is electropencil. That's what the Russians did to force match parts. Normal

I am just wondering as to why the proof marks on the left of the firearm do not have the WaAxxx number as many have.

Fire proofs never have waffenamts because they don't have anything to do with that. Testing with an overpressure load and marked reciever, barrel and bolt root for passing this test.

Also what the three waffenamts on the right of the firearm, all with the same inspection number beneath, tell me about the rifle. I've been lead to believe they only receive more than one waffenamt if the rifle was brought to a depot to be repaired. If so all three numbers would be unlikely to be the same.

Early rifles had many more inspection steps hence more WaA stamps. Even 4 wasn't unusual. Later inspection marks were reduced. Different numbers are common when a receiver was started by one facilty and finished by another. Or transferred to be finished when they couldn't/didn't complete them. Yours is 135 for Mauser Oberndorf.

..sellers asking $450.

If the bore is good that's reasonable. If you could get him down a little even better.

Also I found the front band isn't matching and again the bolt isn't matching.

Normal for Russian captures. Usually the only things matching are what's 'permanently' attached to the receiver. Barrel and sight bases usually. Everything else is a different number. Again normal for an RC.

 

[boltoperated]

By your description (I didn’t have time to look at your photos), it sounds like a decent example of a Russian-captured K98 and yes, more recent import. It is “collectible” despite some of the comments that attempt to define what is and what isn’t collectible. As one person commented, the bore condition will be key - to both its value and function. And since you mentioned that you are familiar with modern firearms and not so much with historical ones you will want to research cleaning the bore of such a rifle (having had a steady diet of corrosive ammo) so that you can do it properly. I agree with another comment made where negotiating down from the $450 would be a happier place to be... unless there is something compelling about this particular one where it could be well worth the $450. Even R/Cs can be of the more rare types of K98s but with the obvious detraction of non-matching serials. They are less valuable, not less collectible. Good luck with all!


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[pzjgr]

It is “collectible” despite some of the comments that attempt to define what is and what isn’t collectible. They are less valuable, not less collectible.


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Depends what your definition of collectible is....

RC's are great entry level guns for guys, and as shooters. Price is reasonable for an RC, considering what some crazy people pay on GB for them.

If you want a shooter, or an entry level gun, I'd say try to get him down a bit, if not, you aren't getting hurt....

 

[M1903A3]

Depends what your definition of collectible is....

RC's are great entry level guns for guys, and as shooters. Price is reasonable for an RC, considering what some crazy people pay on GB for them.

If you want a shooter, or an entry level gun, I'd say try to get him down a bit, if not, you aren't getting hurt....

Agreed on all points! Now that I can see the pictures, which are excellent photos by the way, it is most definitely a “Russian Capture” by all identifications.

There are those who believe that R/C (abbreviated for ease of typing) guns are NEVER EVER collectible, and at the other end of the scale there are folks who see them as equal in value to unaltered “as manufactured” guns. And this point is often HOTLY contended on forums, with people coming down on both sides. Your gun appears to be in decent shape, and often R/C guns have good bores and make fine shooters. Which brings us to another point of contention: which guns will people fire and which ones won’t they? Lots of opinions there too.

My take: R/C guns ARE a part of the K98 story. They can be good shooters, and because I think they aren’t super collectible there is no risk of damaging a rare gun by using it. I think that as collectible firearms, they ought not bring values like all matching guns, or even what “bolt mismatch” or even “stock mismatch” guns do. Do I own any? Yes! Why? Because they are examples of VERY RARE variations that I could likely never find any other way. One is a restoration piece that started out as just a barrel and a receiver! I value it, but it’s NOT worth what it would have been “as made”.

So, 450 is not a terrible price at all for a fireable rifle! The price reflects its lower collectibility though. K98s are a complicated business and pricing is a hotly contested topic. In the end, a rifle is worth whatever someone will pay for it, justifiably so or not.


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[heavy_mech]

..There are those who believe that R/C (abbreviated for ease of typing) guns are NEVER EVER collectible, and at the other end of the scale there are folks who see them as equal in value to unaltered “as manufactured” guns. And this point is often HOTLY contended on forums, with people coming down on both sides. Your gun appears to be in decent shape, and often R/C guns have good bores and make fine shooters. Which brings us to another point of contention: which guns will people fire and which ones won’t they? Lots of opinions there too.

I agree. I don't know who the new guy is and I'm not trying to ratph*ck him but there's hundreds of pages on GB of fanboi's trying to whip RCs up into $1k or $2k guns... 'the next new collectible'. Personally I'm not buying it. Same as the 'now' $300 Mosin rifles. Last ever... Sure. I think as I stated and you reiterated they're great for shooters (usually they have very good bores as that was a criteria) for reenactors and for traditional iron sight hunting of big game. That's how I have and do use my example. I don't hate on it or abuse it, but she get used... hard sometimes.

 

[M1903A3]

I agree. I don't know who the new guy is and I'm not trying to ratph*ck him but there's hundreds of pages on GB of fanboi's trying to whip RCs up into $1k or $2k guns... 'the next new collectible'. Personally I'm not buying it. Same as the 'now' $300 Mosin rifles. Last ever... Sure. I think as I stated and you reiterated they're great for shooters (usually they have very good bores as that was a criteria) for reenactors and for traditional iron sight hunting of big game. That's how I have and do use my example. I don't hate on it or abuse it, but she get used... hard sometimes.

Right on! You nailed it heavymech. The inflation of the prices on heretofore less desirable (I didn’t say UNdesirable but less) R/C guns doesn’t follow the high end collector world thinking because the guns do not meet the originality criteria of the top collectors. It is worth noting that many of the top end collectors are also authors and researchers and for them originality is key, it’s the basis for much of their research! Seen this way, R/C guns don’t help much if at all in their research, and so shouldn’t command the same value. THAT is the universe in which four or five thousand dollar rifles live, where they are examined and compared and attempted to be understood in the whole huge K98 context. THIS is one major reason why I feel that the valuation is as described, and I think in light of these facts justified. I don’t HATE R/C guns, not by any stretch. They have their appropriate place in the overall K98 story, but I can’t justify the prices some of them go for! Entry level K98, sure! Shoot it, become familiar with it, take it apart and put it back together, get it wet or dirty, no prob! But then, notice the different markings on it, wonder what they mean, start finding out what each mark means and what that part may have been on originally, and then BOOM you want a “correct” K98! Excellent way to get more deeply into the K98. But I really don’t see how one can justify some of the prices I see. To each his own I guess!


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[Warrior1354]

I agree. I don't know who the new guy is and I'm not trying to ratph*ck him but there's hundreds of pages on GB of fanboi's trying to whip RCs up into $1k or $2k guns... 'the next new collectible'. Personally I'm not buying it. Same as the 'now' $300 Mosin rifles. Last ever... Sure. I think as I stated and you reiterated they're great for shooters (usually they have very good bores as that was a criteria) for reenactors and for traditional iron sight hunting of big game. That's how I have and do use my example. I don't hate on it or abuse it, but she get used... hard sometimes.

Agree 100% why pay $1000 and up for a Russian capture when you can find decent bolt mismatched rifles all the time for under $1000? They are what they are a Post War assembled K98k from parts most likely done by German prisoners for use in later conflicts in the future. And yes I see the Mosin fan boys over there saying your run of the mill Mosin will bring close too $800 and up one day. First question why was the Mosin so popular? Well I could go too any gun shop or gun show and buy one for under $200, with all of the goodies, and a whole spam can of ammo for under $100 a few years ago. They were popular becasue they were cheap and you could get some military history for also cheap. When your run of the mill Mosin dealers try too sell these plickers basically for $500 one day. Most will just buy your typical cheap black rifle for $600. Trust me I hear this all the time at the shows.

You want too know how hard it is too sell a 91/30 sniper? The most common asked question why is this Mosin without a scope priced at $275 and this one with a scope is $900? What's the difference!

 

[heavy_mech]

..I don’t HATE R/C guns, not by any stretch. They have their appropriate place in the overall K98 story,,, Shoot it, become familiar with it, take it apart and put it back together, get it wet or dirty, no prob! But then, notice the different markings on it

And that's it exactly in a nutshell. My first was an RC. And I still have it and it's my deer rifle. Effective at that. But I didn't know squat, however it did get me started just as you said. "What does this mean or that marking?" And so it begins.

 

[Loewe]

It isn't about the rifles themselves, at least for me it isn't, they are what they are, poorly refinished complete mismatchers and that equals shooter grade and has for 30 years or more. This isn't a new concept, it is as old as the hobby, old collectors journals and gun magazines routinely classify rifles by condition and refinished is always on the bottom rung.

As for research value, for the 98k they offer some merit, serial ranges they prove useful, especially for more elusive maker-dates (as someone said, in such cases an rc might prove to have merit in a collection because an original is too rare and expensive to acquire), they are also very useful for acceptance and barrel coding patterns. This is generally only important on scarcer maker-dates though, as the more common maker-dates (byf 41-44, dot, dou, bcd etc..) are so well represented in trends work their inclusion is not of much value, at least outside of barrel codes or queer serialing patterns (as occurred with Brno).

My primary objection to rc's revolve around the traveling carnival show atmosphere and opportunists that boost and promote rc's as the next big thing, the don't miss the boat carnival barkers peddling to the uninformed and inexperienced. These opportunists are a plague on the hobby, their outrageous claims and distortions regarding history (Stalingrad gun, KL gun, SS etc.. is despicable) and value are pure unadulterated idiocy, worse they are as Eric rightly described them as locust that travel from one collector forum to another destroying everything in their path...

Informed buying of an rc is as sane as any other purchase; the peddling of rc's as historical artifacts or investment opportunities is just as despicable as humpers peddling their "restorations" as original rifles. I find these rc peddlers and boosters more objectionable than humpers, at least the humpers are rightly ridiculed and ostracized within the hobby, these carnival barkers promoting the rc as collectibles and the next big thing are taken serious and largely ignored by collectors (who should know better as most of them have seen what occurs when they are not confronted/challenged or made moderators - look at Gunboards-98k, its decline is inextricably linked to BArF being made moderator, a man whose only claim to experience was sorting through 5,000 rc's, apparently without taking a single note... the man didn't even understand the basics of waffenamts and acceptance, - though he was an expert at censoring and infractions)

 

[Warrior1354]

I agree too that Paul there is at least three threads a week talking about how RC 98k rifles are going too be the next big thing. Personally I believe the neatest 98k RC rifle ever found would be the 1936 BSW that is in the vol II book series. From my research I believe this is the only one known. And the data from it is very useful. But I would still shoot this 98k RC over one of my all matching rifles! They are what they are.

 

[Loewe]

I would buy a BSW/36 if the opportunity arose, rc or not. Matter of fact, i believe the only known BSW/36 is an rc. Perhaps a S27G or S237/36 would also rate in certain circumstances.

While the rifles have merit in some circumstances, shooters, specialized spot holders, the promoters and barkers are a menace (locust) and have zero merit.

Personally I believe the neatest 98k RC rifle ever found would be the 1936 BSW that is in the vol II book series. From my research I believe this is the only one known. And the data from it is very useful. But I would still shoot this 98k RC over one of my all matching rifles! They are what they are.