Research project: Gew98 Kaiserliche Marine contracts

[Warrior1354]

Hoping this gets made a sticky. As of now this is what I have been researching quite a bit lately. I do have some good news. I'm working on designing a website. And for that first chapter will be on the Kaiserliche Marine contract Gewehrs. But, I'm trying to gather as much data and information as I can first. Which unfortunately there is not a lot out there. We all know that DWM was the main supplier for the Kaiserliche Marine for these special rifles. But, I'm also wanting to see if some of the state-run Arsenal's did a couple small contracts as well for the Navy. So far we have found Spandau made rifles, Erfurt made rifles, and a very small contract order from the Mauser company.

Keeping us all researching on this more. Will help determine more about the letter blocks and serial number ranges for these KM rifles too. This gives us idea how many rifles were contracted, and produced for the Navy for certain years as well. Even better how many were assigned to certain Kaiserliche Marine units. Maybe one day I will see my book project become a reality. But, that will take a lot of work and time. But, that will be a later project for the future.

Personally, I wish I could find more about these rifles. Unfortunately, so few are known, and the ones that are out there. Are probably in long-lost collections that have yet to be discovered. I do wonder how many of these rifles were lost when the German Navy scuttled most of their Fleet in 1918 before the war ended. But, as many here have stated.

Most of these rifles were transferred to front-line military service so who knows how many were lost in the trenches too. Thinking about all the circumstances gives you an idea why so few did survive in the end.

I'm also going to post pictures as well.

Bayonets, rifles, carbines with unit markings for the Imperial Navy


M.P.K.= Marine Pioneer Kompanie
(I,II,III,IV,V) M.A.A= Matrosen Artilleries-Abteilung
M.F.A= Marine Flieger Abteilung (Naval Airman Detachment)
M.L.A= Marine Luftschiffer Abteilung (Marine Airship Detachment)
M.W= Minen Werfer (Mine Thrower)
S.A.A= Sea Artillery Detachment
S.F.A= Sea Airman Detachment
S.J.A= Schiffs Jungen Abteilung (Ships Apprentice)
U.A= Unterseeboot Abteilung (Submarine Detachment)
V.A= Versuchs Abteilung (Trials Detachment)
W.M.A= Wilhelmshaven Matrosen Artillerie
O.M.D.= Ostasiatisches Marine Detachement (eastasian navy detachment, Peking and Tientsin, China 1909-1914)
K.A= Costal Artillery Detachment
K.W.D=
V.M.A= Mine Laying Detachment
I.M.D= 1st Matrosen Division
II.M.D= 2nd Matrosen Division
I.W.D= 1st Werft Division (Kiel)
II.W.D=2nd Werft Division (Wilhelmshaven)
I.T.A= 1st Torpedo Abteilung
II.T.D= 2nd Torpedo Division (Wilhelmshaven)
W.W.= Werft Wilhelmshaven (Wilhemshaven Dockyard)
W.K.= Werft zu Kiel (Kiel dockyard)
W.D.= Werft zu Danzig (dockyard Danzig)
I.S.B= Naval 1st Seebattaillon (Kiel)
II.S.B= Naval 2nd Seabataillon (Wilhelmshaven)
III S.B. = Drittes Seabataillon (German Marines garrisoned in Tsingtao, China
III.St.S.B= Naval 3rd Stamm Seebataillon (training unit for the III.S.B. in Germany)
I.E.S.B= 1st Ersatz Seebataillon (Kiel, only 1900-1901)
II.E.S.B= 2nd Ersatz Seebataillon (Wilhelmshaven, only 1900-1901)
M.A= Naval Artillery Section
U.A= Submarine unit
A.D.H= Artillery Depot Helgoland

DWM Gew98 production and known rifles.

DWM/1899/5706/ W.D 1072 Late Craig Brown collection
DWM/1901/8253/ W.K 5016
DWM/1901/8547/ unmarked disk
DWM/1901/9687/ II.M.D 2815
DWM/1901/ 60a / W.K.5028
DWM/1901/2539a/I.W.D.221
DWM/1901/4028a/W.D.1178
DWM/1901/4278a/W.K.5017
DWM/1901/4415a/ W.K.5026
DWM/1901/4925a/ II.W.D.69
DWM/1902/8008/I.W.D.1059
DWM/1902/9394a/ V.M.A. 302
DWM/1903/573/ II.M.D.6335
DWM/1903/2225/ I.S.B. 3693
DWM/1903/2096a/ II.S.B.3023
DWM/1904/461/ unmarked disk
DWM/1906/1102/ W.D. 709
DWM/1906/2702/I.M.D.7743
DWM/1906/3664/ W.D.706
DWM/1906/5737/ KU.1211
DWM/1906/ ? / M.A.111
DWM/1906/4338c/WW.84
DWM/1915/1510/I.S.B.414

Spandau Gew98 production and known rifles.

Spandau/1913/9060c/ III.S.B.R.321
Spandau/1913/9741c/ III.S.B.R.124
Spandau/1915/4339d/ I.S.B.1111

Erfurt production Gew98 and Kar98a known rifles and carbines.

1899/Erfurt/5205/ III.S.B.2.199
1900/Erfurt/573/ II.M.D.1225
1913/Erfurt/2133a/Kar98a/ O.M.D 39
1913/Erfurt/2475a/Kar98a/O.M.D. 49

Mauser Gew98 production and known rifles.

One finally located thank you Amberg!

1910/WMO/1513/II.WD

Bayonets

 

[Warrior1354]

Pictures of Imperial Navy soldiers with Gew98 rifles and other rifles.

I have found pictures of German KM soldiers with Mosin Nagant rifles as well will include these too have many more to list in the coming weeks. I find picture #5 one of the most interesting it clearly shows German Marines training with 71/84 rifles I wonder if these were some of the earlier 71/84 contracts many years prior.

One of these pictures is also very interesting it has a name on it, and in the picture it's next to one of the Marines in the photograph.

 

[Warrior1354]

Production info greatly researched and written by Paul.

The year of 1902 is the most difficult year of these early DWM's. Didn't really notice this initially, from 1899-1902 DWM serialed w/o rolling over and only a-blocks are known. Only 3 are known so far as I am aware, 6811/a which I use to own, 6960/a (which is a trainwreck) and yours, the nicest of the three.

The starting range for 1902 is probably between 4415/a-6811/a and I doubt many were made after your rifle in 1902... 1903 DWM starts to roll over serial ranges. So, so probably only a few thousand were made this year, its the least recorded pre-war year for DWM (tied with 1914 actually, but clearly more were made in 1914 than 1902). The only year that might be more rare is 1900 but none are known this year, so far as I know no one has seen a DWM/1900 (its possible/probable a few were made though, there is a 3000 number gap between the last 1899 and the first 1901)

The vast majority of rifles for the Kaiserliche Marine were made by DWM, almost all pre-1906 dated, most pre-1904. They are all rare in any condition, matching all the more. There are nearly a dozen articles written about the KM G98, possibly the earliest article I know of is by Mark Weiringa in 1979 for Kaiserzeit. I wrote a detailed article in 2010 regarding the variation, it covers DWM and the KM's thoroughly.

KM G98's are known after 1906, a couple 1907-1908 rifles by DWM, another reported by Jeff Noll from 1913 (a Spandau though, possibly not original as almost all made were produced by the Loewe group, - specifically DWM and Mauser Oberndorf).

Although no Mauser Oberndorf has been identified directly, it is known Mauser supplied 2,050 G98's to the German Navy in 1910-11 (two contracts). This is proven through documents Jon Speed has discovered (Wolfgang Seel also mentioned this in his book); attached see Jon Speed's research on this subject.

Jon Speed's words follow:

***Paul, I saw some talks on your Imperial site on G 98 for German Marines. To add some small historical aspects here are 2 docs on this subject. Regards, Jon


1. German Marine office letter 1905 talking about G 98 Spare parts like 1500 Extractors in 1902 and other items in bases at f Kiel and Wilhelmshaven,

2. Mauser 1910 yearly sales report shows 1000 G 98 for German Marines in this period. DWM was also busy with direct sales to Marines as were other firms etc.

Regarding the naval contracts at Mauser Oberndorf, Jon Speed contacted me to inform me that two existed, one for 1000 rifles in 1910, another in 1911 for 1050 rifles. So far no rifle has been discovered from these contracts, - so far as I know. Though the totals he gave for the Army in 1910 are also only 1/3 of the known high report for 1910, so obviously the survival rates are playing a role here. Obviously most were destroyed during or immediately after the war.

 

[Warrior1354]

Navy 1871/84 production info greatly researched by Vincent thank you for time doing this.

Gewehr 71/84 marked with "KM" meaning it was property of the "Kaiserliche Marine" or imperial navy. Even though from 1887 until 1892 the imperial navy ordered a minimum of 62,000 rifles these navy marked 71/84 seems to be very rare today. Maybe it is because of the long time the 71/84 was used in the navy. It took me five years to find one and the only other I know was in the beautiful collection of the late Mr. Brown.

This rifle was manufactured in the Erfurt arsenal in 1888. Since this rifle was never issued to an army regiment it has no issue date next to the date of manufacture. Serial number is 2843 and the property markings on the butt plate are "KM" with the number "9934".

I hope you enjoy this rifle as much as I do and maybe some of you do have an imperial navy Gew. 71/84 or Jägerbüchse 71 to share here with us.

With kind regards

Vincent

 

[MichaelWC]

Hoping this get's made a sticky because this is what I have been researching quite a bit lately. I do have some good news I'm working on designing a website and the first chapter I'm wanting to do for my future book project is Navy contract Gewehrs. But I'm trying to gather as much data and information as I can. Which unfortunately there is not a lot out there we know that DWM was the main supplier for the Navy for these special rifles. But I'm also wanting to see if some of the state-run Arsenal's did a couple small contracts as well for the Navy. We have found Spandau rifles with Navy units.

The more I research the more I'm trying to find letter blocks and serial number ranges to see how many rifles were contracted and produced for the Navy for certain years and even unit markings. Maybe one day I will see my book project become a reality which will take a lot of work and time. Main reason I bought a new computer and equipment for my office.

Personally I wish I could find more so I can get more data and research on them but so few are known and the ones that are out there are probably in long-lost collections that have yet been discovered. I do wonder how many of these rifles were lost when the German Navy scuttled most of their Fleet in 1918 before the war ended. But as many have stated most of these rifles were transferred to front-line military service so who knows how many were lost in the trenches. My 1902 DWM is a prefect example being counterbored from launching rifle grenades either that rifle was transferred to the Army early in 1914 or some Navy Marines transferred to the west front to fight.

I'm also going to post pictures as well.

Bayonets and unit markings Navy

V.M.A=
I.W.D= 1st Werft Division (Kiel)
I.T.A= 1st Torpedo Abteilung
I.S.B= Naval 1st Seebattaillon
W.K.= Werft zu Kiel (Kiel dockyard)
W.D.= Werft zu Danzig (dockyard Danzig)
III S.B. = Drittes Seabataillon (German Marines garrisoned in Tsingtao, China
II.S.B= Seabataillon

DWM production and known rifles

DWM/1901/2539a/I.W.D.221
DWM/1901/4278a/W.K.5017
DWM/1902/9394a/V.M.A. 302
DWM/1903/2096a/ II.S.B.3023
DWM/1906/3664/ W.D.706

Spandau production and known rifles

Spandau/1913/9060c/ III.S.B.R.321
Spandau/1913/9741c/ III.S.B.R.124

Fantastic information Jordan. It's very well done. I was just asking Paul the other day about known Seebataillon examples. I just added the one by DWM that is on your list to my list.

Seabataillon:
1899/Erfurt/5205/ III.S.B.2.199
1913/Spandau/9741c/ III.S.B.R.124
1913/Spandau/9060c/ III.S.B.R.321
DWM/1903/2096a/ II.S.B.3023

 

[GEM]

Although somewhat tangential, thought I would share this as part of the naval discussion. All matching 1890 C.G. Haenel Kar 88. Canceled unit mark on the middle band: B.3.Ch. 2.72.; 1.Ch.1.88. marked on the nose cap. Anchor appears to be branded into the stock. Transferred from Army to naval use?

 

[Spartaner545]

Anchor appears to be branded into the stock. Transferred from Army to naval use?

No, the anchor is not a marking used by the imperial german navy. Plus the K88 was never issued to the naval forces.

With kind regards

Vincent

 

[GEM]

No, the anchor is not a marking used by the imperial german navy. Plus the K88 was never issued to the naval forces.

With kind regards

Vincent

Thanks. Another mystery lost to the ages.

 

[Warrior1354]

Okay after going through hours of documents that I have found and my own research notes I've come across a couple interesting findings wanted others to maybe elaborate what I'm thinking here. I'm finding a lot of Navy unit marked early Simson S98 bayonets. They're all real early from 1900 and 1903 and there is a lot of them. I wonder it's Simson just had a production ordered just for the German Navy. I'm still also trying to figure out why two 1913 Spandau unit marked Navy gewehr 98 rifles have been found. What's interesting if you notice they're both in the same letter block and the state arsenal of Spandau didn't make a lot of rifles for the year of 1913. So something tells me they had a very small production order for the Navy. Of course they're all just theories but maybe I can catch on to something here.

 

[Spartaner545]

I'm finding a lot of Navy unit marked early Simson S98 bayonets. They're all real early from 1900 and 1903 and there is a lot of them. I wonder it's Simson just had a production ordered just for the German Navy.

I think you are right. A very large part of the S98 old pattern bayonets from the imperial navy are from this manufacturer. They also feature no army property stamp on the back of the blade. This shows that they were directly ordered and produced for the navy.

I also took the liberty to "update" your list of unit markings. I hope thats okay for you, Warrior1354.

All of these markings have been encountered by me on bayonets S98, S98/05, kS98 or Gewehr 98. Earlier "pre rifle 98" unit markings are not included.


K.W.D= ?
V.M.A= 5th (?) Mine laying detachment

I.M.D= 1st Matrosen Division (Kiel)
II.M.D= 2nd Matrosen Division (Wilhelmshaven)
I.W.D= 1st Werft Division (Kiel)
II.M.D=2nd Werft Division (Wilhelmshaven)
I.T.A= 1st Torpedo Abteilung (older style of marking)
I.T.D= 1st Torpedo Division (Kiel)
II.T.D= 2nd Torpedo Division (Wilhelmshaven)
I.S.B= Naval 1st Seebattaillon (Kiel)
II.S.B= Naval 2nd Seabataillon (Wilhelmshaven)
III S.B.= Naval 3rd Seabataillon (German Marines garrisoned in Tsingtao, China)
III.St.S.B= Naval 3rd Stamm Seebataillon (training unit for the III.S.B. in germany)
I.E.S.B= 1st Ersatz Seebataillon (Kiel, only 1900-1901)
II.E.S.B= 2nd Ersatz Seebataillon (Wilhelmshaven, only 1900-1901)
O.M.D.= Ostasiatisches Marine Detachement (eastasian navy detachement, Peking and Tientsin, China 1909-1914)
W.K.= Werft zu Kiel (Kiel dockyard)
W.W.= Werft Wilhelmshaven (Wilhemshaven Dockyard)
W.D.= Werft zu Danzig (Danzig dockyard)
(I,II,III,IV,V) M.A.A.= Matrosen Artillery Abteilung (Sailor artillery departmets, 5 units until 1914)
M.P.K.= Marine Pionier Kompanie
U.A.= Unterseeboot Abteilung (Kiel)
M.A.=Mienen Abteilung (Cuxhaven)

With kind regards

Vincent

 

[Warrior1354]

Thank you very much Vincent greatly appreciate it also would like to thank Jeff Noll for allowing me to include Naval documented rifles from his book. Much thanks Jeff for helping with this project.

 

[Battle]

Pictures of Imperial Navy soldiers with Gew98 rifles and other rifles.

I have found pictures of German KM soldiers with Mosin Nagant rifles as well will include these too have many more to list in the coming weeks. I find picture #5 one of the most interesting it clearly shows German Marines training with 71/84 rifles I wonder if these were some of the earlier 71/84 contracts many years prior.

Very nice photographs. You would be surprised on what you can find on vintage postcards from that era.

 

[chrisftk]

Jordan, just a couple bayonet data points from my personal collection for you:

1) 03 Simson marked on hilt: I S.B.142
Marked on scabbard:
St. A. 250 and W.W. 8323

2) 02 Erfurt marked on hilt: I S.B. 261
No scabbard units

3) M/M scabbard on an 06 bayonet with a boxer rebellion unit mark: E. S. B. II 1981. (The E is lined through indicating the scabbard was folded back into standard SB inventory after the rebellion was put down. )

Will let you know if I come across any others. If nothing else just more evidence Simson had a big hand in naval bayo production.


Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

 

[Warrior1354]

Just wanted to let you guys know a big thank you from me my email has been blowing up lately from members here thank you so much for contributing to my project guys I really appreciate.

 

[Warrior1354]

Another cool Navy photo have more coming!

 

[Warrior1354]

Here's a little thing I noticed this evening and I wonder if others have noticed it as well. I wonder if other collectors out there have found Navy unit marked bayonets with the crown M on the blade. Chances are it's probably something that has been overlooked not something we typically notice. I have one bayonet in my collection that has this specific proof on it and Chris mentioned he has two of them. All Simson S98 quillback bayonets too. I just wish I could find a specific sale contract by Simson for the Imperial Navy. But alas finding records over a hundred years old is very difficult.

 

[Warrior1354]

Have not added to this thread in awhile. A couple of months ago more cool pictures came in from Germany. These pictures are showing sailors and Marines armed with captured 1891 Mosin rifles modified to accept German bayonets. And even some showing Sailors and Marines armed with later made Gewehr 98 rifles. Most likely late 1917 or early 1918.

 

[cj556]

One more from Springfield Armory NPS: https://museum.nps.gov/ParkObjdet.a...b=objects&dir=CR AAWEB&osearch=gew dwm&page=1

1901 DWM serial 60a and unit marking W.K.5028

 

[Warrior1354]

Thank you Marc for the info still waiting to hear back from my friend in Germany if he found anything more on the Naval contracts. I'll just keep researching myself!

 

[Warrior1354]

Back of picture say it was mailed out of Fort Korügen