Questionable Rifles at Legacy

[bruce98k]

Guys I would red flag the bcd45 and the byf44 Zf41 rifles. The bcd45 has a renumbered bolt and IMO the Zf41 has issues.
Caveat emptor.

https://www.legacy-collectibles.com/rifles/german/beautiful phosphate nazi k98 - bcd 45.html

https://www.legacy-collectibles.com/rifles/german/rare nazi mauser k98 sniper rifle - zf41.html

bcd45: The numbers on the bolt body are engraved, appears the shroud ismessed with and replaced safety.

byf44: Scope mount is renumbered to match.

Both rifles are on hold.... I pray they do not show up here.

 

[RyanE]

Has Legacy ever sold a rifle that wasn't questionable?

 

[Hambone]

bcd 45 with renumbered bolt 97343

 

[Hambone]

byf 44 Zf.41 10431 with faked numbered mount

 

[Hambone]

Thank you Bruce. If we are not vigilant and do not identify such issues then our hobby will become untrustworthy and corrupted. If turds are not called out then our beaches will be awash in turds. No one wants to vacation on a turd covered beach. Then our hobby will die slowly, as US CW collecting did for that reason. If people know they will be stuck with turds and not be able to toss them back into the water to wash up somewhere else, then they will be encouraged to educate themselves and learn. Education and learning is the best weapon against humpery and turds.

 

[mdarnell19]

Yes that zf41 mount number is 100% bad.

 

[Caesar1]

I am never really good with figuring out re-numbered bolts. I didnt purchase any but would like to know what the giveaway is? On the BCD45 Looking at the pic-sticky section, the fonts look pretty close to me. Is it that the flat looks to have been shaved away a bit at the top?

 

[Tom H]

The bolt might've fooled me. It's kind of spooky. That's why I get 2 or 3 or more opinions before I buy anything.

 

[Hambone]

The bolt might've fooled me. It's kind of spooky. That's why I get 2 or 3 or more opinions before I buy anything.

It's why we have a pic reference library of vetted originals Compare:

 

[Hambone]

and compare.......

 

[mrfarb]

From these pics, the bcd bolt looks like a very good renumber that will fool most. It “looks” wrong to someone who has seen a lot of them. The 4 is off, the flat looks filed down, safety should be numbered. I would bet in hand the bolt isn’t phosphate, gas shield looks blue? I’d like to see that one in hand.

 

[Hambone]

It jumps out at you if you've handled bcd and just have a feel for what they look like. Also, from this period there are invariably machine marks on the bolt flat. Those get polished out on a renumber job, and the bolt is changed. The font is pretty close, but no cigarette.

 

[Sauer_Kraut]

I'm not so good at detecting fonts yet, but the geometry really jumps out at me. Clearly it has been re-profiled.

 

[M1903A3]

From these pics, the bcd bolt looks like a very good renumber that will fool most. It “looks” wrong to someone who has seen a lot of them. The 4 is off, the flat looks filed down, safety should be numbered. I would bet in hand the bolt isn’t phosphate, gas shield looks blue? I’d like to see that one in hand.

The humper’s fonts are getting better, this may have been done using a pantograph engraver, using legit stamped numbers as the originals to duplicate. The issue there is that it’s always going to look engraved and not stamped, no matter how good the original numerals are.

Pantograph engravers can also enlarge or reduce the size of the reproduction to a very large degree without any distortion. Thus you could use good bolt numbers to copy onto a bolt shroud and shrink them to the perfect size. Again though, they will be clearly obvious as engravings not stampings.

 

[Hambone]

The humper’s fonts are getting better, this may have been done using a pantograph engraver, using legit stamped numbers as the originals to duplicate. The issue there is that it’s always going to look engraved and not stamped, no matter how good the original numerals are.

Pantograph engravers can also enlarge or reduce the size of the reproduction to a very large degree without any distortion. Thus you could use good bolt numbers to copy onto a bolt shroud and shrink them to the perfect size. Again though, they will be clearly obvious as engravings not stampings.

Good point. Much pantograph engraving has been appearing. It's normally a little different looking from this. It tends to be shallower and more rounded. The die strikes for the original font are chiseled and sharp.

 

[bruce98k]

IMO, this number has been engraved.

 

[copperlake]

This numbering thing is interesting. On my own I can't figure why one would engrave instead of using a letter punch of the correct font?

 

[Herk1994]

This numbering thing is interesting. On my own I can't figure why one would engrave instead of using a letter punch of the correct font?

As I’ve been led to understand, many of these numbers/letters are hard or impossible to find in exact font. This is of course, a blessing for all involved, besides humpers themselves. The humpers, between the skill of their “craft” and their ability to generate hyperbole for their product, are getting very good at suckering the unwary and/or uneducated. We have to remain vigilant and call these out as they come by.

Tom at Legacy should be ashamed of himself. He's a crook, flat out. He's well and truly burned all of his chances in terms of being granted the benefit of the doubt. This is at least the 5th or 6th rifles that have been bad. I can clearly see that he's using his position to knowingly and willingly peddle this crap for large profit margins, and maybe even has someone doing the 98k dirty work for him behind the scenes. Speculation of course on the latter

 

[bruce98k]

Problem is that the amount of material required to completely remove the existing number could be substantial.
That's why you see many of the faked and renumbered bolts with welding to build up the area and also to cover
the old numbers. I agree we have to remain vigilant and continue to call out forgeries as they occur.

 

[Bob in OHIO]

Tom at Legacy .....This is at least the 5th or 6th rifles that have been bad.

IMO, Legacy (and others) are brokers, and I think in most cases they just peddle what is brought to them.

I have an auction house near me and here are some truths:

1. I know a known humper who offered me a Zf 41 with a humped bolt/bands (no sale). He's getting ready to take it to the SOS (about 2019.... no sale). Same gun ends up (dumped) at a local auction house, and they write a description based on their own expertice. It sells for 3K IIRC..... and this one get's buried in a collection or perhaps flipped by "Commonwealth". The auction house doesn't want me telling them it's crap, 'cause what do I know? As the guy who brought it in is a Korean War Vet and has a relationship with the auction house.
   
   
2. Before I knew who he was.... I watched "Commonwealth" buy 3-4 K98s at a local auction and all were bad (like in 2016) I tactfully asked if he collected and he said he was a dealer. I mentioned they all have problems, and his response was "Oh well".... I will have them on GB and will still make money. His descriptions have gotten more artful in the past 5 years too.
   
   
3. The auction house is most interested in churning through inventory. Seller's premium + buyers premium is 30-40%. They can easily sell $1M in a good Saturday auction so a nifty 200K after they pay the auctioneer... and the lights. The usually response will be heard.... "if you don't like the item, don't bid", now step aside son! This outfit is amazing... probably 15 - 25 auctions a year (not all guns/ militaria though).