I apologize in advance for the length. It rambles a bit too.
So in doing Luftwaffe BAL research, I also happened to look at some Luftwaffe stuff, including HK Lugers. I didn't really intend to look that closely at it but what I saw bothered me. Basically, I think post-1940 Krieghoff Luger production is a problem. For a few reasons.
1. The first and most obvious problem are the serial numbers. Take a look at the attached serial number list that was kept over on Still's forum. Abandoned since 2015 because of petty egos, but useful. I've cleaned it up and I've added a few pistols to it. Take note of what happens around SN 11200. Its a mess. Production didn't work this way!
The claim, per the 1980 book by Gibson, is that Krieghoff manufactured all pistols that it ever shipped prior to end of the original 10,000 pistol contract in 1937. There is apparently no basis for this, it appears to an invention by Gibson (and presumably other collectors at the time) to explain away the absolutely bonkers serial number progression. HK is alleged to have produced more than 13500 pistols (or at least kits), and these were apparently at least partially numbered (!!!) but presumably undated and unfinished. When the contract ended these pistols were then "moved" and forgotten about.
In 1940 the Luftwaffe calls up and orders roughly 1000. Somehow serial progression is normal until 11200 when things go completely off the rails. After this, things go almost backwards for some reason, with ridiculously tiny yearly production numbers. Yet, somehow, pistols in the 11900 range are completed in 1940? How does anyone look at this and take it seriously?
Why one earth would the Luftwaffe even bother to contract HK to produce an absurd 200-300 obsolete Lugers per year when they were receiving shipments of thousands of P38s every month? There is just no explanation for the crazy SN distribution or tiny supposed production totals. None of it makes any sense.
2. A second problem is that something seems to happen at Krieghoff in late 1942. Before then, everything HK is BAL2 marked. Suddenly, fzs marked items like flare guns and MG15 are BAL22 marked. An fzs 1943 dated aircraft MG barrel (MG81 I guess) used on a VG1 rifle is completely BAL22 marked also. One of two things happened:
A. Whole production lines were moved elsewhere, possibly Belgium. Very possible! Honestly, probably the most likely explanation.
B. BAL2 left Suhl (obviously a big problem for Lugers). Like WaA offices, BAL did sometimes move.
I've been looking for a good pic of a first pattern FG42, which still have BAL acceptance, but unfortunately I cannot find any that are legible. One pic I have almost looks like BAL22? Second pattern FG42s have no BAL acceptance, and I think I know why that happened, but we won't get into that.
Another related question: would a branch plant far from Suhl still use the fzs code? I can't think of any other instances where that happened. The two Richard Rinker M24 plants had different codes (brb and dbk), so did MO and MB. Certainly, if parts were made in Belgium (or wherever) and then sent back to Suhl for completion I could see the fzs code being used, but if BAL2 didn't leave Suhl, the BAL22 stuff was made and inspected elsewhere. Why no code change?
2a. By the way, why aren't the late pistols fzs marked? HK continued to mark things "HK" into 1940 (see 1940 MG15) but by 1942 everything was fzs marked. HK collectors lean on, "well all the parts were made in 1937", but I don't like that explanation at all.
3. Third, we know that bogus chamber date changes were occurring. Ralph Shattuck was caught red-handed all the way back in 1980. Harold Skinner owned SN 11278 a matching mag 1940 in decent shape which was photographed for the HK book on pg.175. On pg.179, Shattuck owns the same pistol which is now in mint condition and dated 1941. Oops! To HK collector's credit, they do acknowledge the "large font" 1941 guns (at least a handful known) are all fake but only because ol' Ralph was dumb and/or greedy and got caught.
4. All of the 1945 pistols (which are all unquestionably fake) seem to originate with ol' Ralph too. When some collector died (no one I can find says who, maybe Ralph), all of the dies used to make 1945 guns were found in the his basement along with some unfinished 1945 parts. Ralph was a huge Luger collector and dealer for decades. How many pistols did he fake over the years? As an aside, the 1941 font Shattuck used looks like a match for the 1945 font.
5. Fake 1944 pistols in the 12000 range are also known and have been since the 1970s. They are good fakes, and the date font used looks different than the font on the Shattuck 1941/1945 guns. Partially scrubbed or good total fakes, I don't know. I think faking these has been going on for a very, very long time.
I'm open to being wrong, but my own gut feeling is that HK Luger production ended in 1940 probably around 11300. I'm guessing the Luftwaffe originally planned to receive the P38 but production delays led them to ask for more Lugers in 1940. Once P38 production ramped up, the Luger production was just not needed anymore and the HK aircraft MGs were at the top of the Luftwaffe's priority list.
In the 1950s/1960s, maybe over time some 1940s were "converted" into more profitable 1942, 1943, 1944, examples. There are large gaps in the commercial Krieghoff guns as well as the so called "PX" post-war guns, so perhaps those were another source for good fakes as they are usually undated and sometime even have some initial BAL acceptance on the parts. GIs also looted the factory when they left. Maybe ubiquitous Mauser spares or WW1 Erfurt parts (HK tooling came from Erfurt) were scrubbed and possibly reshaped? Crazy? I don't think so. A guy was making 1945s in his basement in the 1960s/1970s that fooled everyone (and still fools people). Why not 1942s and 1943s too? Think he was the only one doing this?
Its possible that 1940 production continued to 12000 but I think we would see more 1940s in the later ranges. The HK lists are now "secret", of course, so I can't be sure what has turned up over the years, and there is only so much I can do on the internet.
Bottom line: HKs are an enormous mess, and I have no idea how it will be sorted out. As I said maybe I am wrong, but I think something is very, very wrong here.
Edit: Just noticed that I forgot the 1943 MG barrel pic.
So in doing Luftwaffe BAL research, I also happened to look at some Luftwaffe stuff, including HK Lugers. I didn't really intend to look that closely at it but what I saw bothered me. Basically, I think post-1940 Krieghoff Luger production is a problem. For a few reasons.
1. The first and most obvious problem are the serial numbers. Take a look at the attached serial number list that was kept over on Still's forum. Abandoned since 2015 because of petty egos, but useful. I've cleaned it up and I've added a few pistols to it. Take note of what happens around SN 11200. Its a mess. Production didn't work this way!
The claim, per the 1980 book by Gibson, is that Krieghoff manufactured all pistols that it ever shipped prior to end of the original 10,000 pistol contract in 1937. There is apparently no basis for this, it appears to an invention by Gibson (and presumably other collectors at the time) to explain away the absolutely bonkers serial number progression. HK is alleged to have produced more than 13500 pistols (or at least kits), and these were apparently at least partially numbered (!!!) but presumably undated and unfinished. When the contract ended these pistols were then "moved" and forgotten about.
In 1940 the Luftwaffe calls up and orders roughly 1000. Somehow serial progression is normal until 11200 when things go completely off the rails. After this, things go almost backwards for some reason, with ridiculously tiny yearly production numbers. Yet, somehow, pistols in the 11900 range are completed in 1940? How does anyone look at this and take it seriously?
Why one earth would the Luftwaffe even bother to contract HK to produce an absurd 200-300 obsolete Lugers per year when they were receiving shipments of thousands of P38s every month? There is just no explanation for the crazy SN distribution or tiny supposed production totals. None of it makes any sense.
2. A second problem is that something seems to happen at Krieghoff in late 1942. Before then, everything HK is BAL2 marked. Suddenly, fzs marked items like flare guns and MG15 are BAL22 marked. An fzs 1943 dated aircraft MG barrel (MG81 I guess) used on a VG1 rifle is completely BAL22 marked also. One of two things happened:
A. Whole production lines were moved elsewhere, possibly Belgium. Very possible! Honestly, probably the most likely explanation.
B. BAL2 left Suhl (obviously a big problem for Lugers). Like WaA offices, BAL did sometimes move.
I've been looking for a good pic of a first pattern FG42, which still have BAL acceptance, but unfortunately I cannot find any that are legible. One pic I have almost looks like BAL22? Second pattern FG42s have no BAL acceptance, and I think I know why that happened, but we won't get into that.
Another related question: would a branch plant far from Suhl still use the fzs code? I can't think of any other instances where that happened. The two Richard Rinker M24 plants had different codes (brb and dbk), so did MO and MB. Certainly, if parts were made in Belgium (or wherever) and then sent back to Suhl for completion I could see the fzs code being used, but if BAL2 didn't leave Suhl, the BAL22 stuff was made and inspected elsewhere. Why no code change?
2a. By the way, why aren't the late pistols fzs marked? HK continued to mark things "HK" into 1940 (see 1940 MG15) but by 1942 everything was fzs marked. HK collectors lean on, "well all the parts were made in 1937", but I don't like that explanation at all.
3. Third, we know that bogus chamber date changes were occurring. Ralph Shattuck was caught red-handed all the way back in 1980. Harold Skinner owned SN 11278 a matching mag 1940 in decent shape which was photographed for the HK book on pg.175. On pg.179, Shattuck owns the same pistol which is now in mint condition and dated 1941. Oops! To HK collector's credit, they do acknowledge the "large font" 1941 guns (at least a handful known) are all fake but only because ol' Ralph was dumb and/or greedy and got caught.
4. All of the 1945 pistols (which are all unquestionably fake) seem to originate with ol' Ralph too. When some collector died (no one I can find says who, maybe Ralph), all of the dies used to make 1945 guns were found in the his basement along with some unfinished 1945 parts. Ralph was a huge Luger collector and dealer for decades. How many pistols did he fake over the years? As an aside, the 1941 font Shattuck used looks like a match for the 1945 font.
5. Fake 1944 pistols in the 12000 range are also known and have been since the 1970s. They are good fakes, and the date font used looks different than the font on the Shattuck 1941/1945 guns. Partially scrubbed or good total fakes, I don't know. I think faking these has been going on for a very, very long time.
I'm open to being wrong, but my own gut feeling is that HK Luger production ended in 1940 probably around 11300. I'm guessing the Luftwaffe originally planned to receive the P38 but production delays led them to ask for more Lugers in 1940. Once P38 production ramped up, the Luger production was just not needed anymore and the HK aircraft MGs were at the top of the Luftwaffe's priority list.
In the 1950s/1960s, maybe over time some 1940s were "converted" into more profitable 1942, 1943, 1944, examples. There are large gaps in the commercial Krieghoff guns as well as the so called "PX" post-war guns, so perhaps those were another source for good fakes as they are usually undated and sometime even have some initial BAL acceptance on the parts. GIs also looted the factory when they left. Maybe ubiquitous Mauser spares or WW1 Erfurt parts (HK tooling came from Erfurt) were scrubbed and possibly reshaped? Crazy? I don't think so. A guy was making 1945s in his basement in the 1960s/1970s that fooled everyone (and still fools people). Why not 1942s and 1943s too? Think he was the only one doing this?
Its possible that 1940 production continued to 12000 but I think we would see more 1940s in the later ranges. The HK lists are now "secret", of course, so I can't be sure what has turned up over the years, and there is only so much I can do on the internet.
Bottom line: HKs are an enormous mess, and I have no idea how it will be sorted out. As I said maybe I am wrong, but I think something is very, very wrong here.
Edit: Just noticed that I forgot the 1943 MG barrel pic.
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