Questionable Factory Helmets

[M45]

I'm going to take a contrary opinion just for the sake of it, and I'm not an owner of this one, selling it, or trying to pipe sunshine up anything. I think that decal is close to the drop date, enough that there could be overlap. In production like this with multiple lines especially, there will be a "gray area" where some are, and some aren't _________ (fill in whatever rule). A couple months to me falls in that zone. Just my opinions and I've got no dog in this one other than the discussion.

If you are talking about the EF M42 in post# 15, realize that the 4600 range lot# is about 1000 lots past the last known SD Heer for this maker.

And if L. Baer's research is correct (re: the 8/28/43 decal drop), then October 1943 is certainly past that point. Also consider that OKT43 was I presume the time of liner manufacture. How much longer would a liner queue up in the production pipeline before it was actually installed in a helmet at the helmet factory?

Also we know that the HJ&K decal has been prolifically applied to ND helmets post war (re: the ckl M42 above). HJ&K does not even belong on a ckl helmet.

My final point here is that the helmet and decal are unissued. This should be an issue of major concern.

 

[Hambone]

If you are talking about the EF M42 in post# 15, realize that the 4600 range lot# is about 1000 lots past the last known SD Heer for this maker.

And if L. Baer's research is correct (re: the 8/28/43 decal drop), then October 1943 is certainly past that point. Also consider that OKT43 was I presume the time of liner manufacture. How much longer would a liner queue up in the production pipeline before it was actually installed in a helmet at the helmet factory?

Also we know that the HJ&K decal has been prolifically applied to ND helmets post war (re: the ckl M42 above). HJ&K does not even belong on a ckl helmet.

My final point here is that the helmet and decal are unissued. This should be an issue of major concern.

I wouldn't bet money against you on any of that

 

[M45]

M42 sd heer

M42 SD Heer.

This one has been discussed before. Higher lot#, interior slag and later darker paint than the lighter green gray seen on known originals.

Helmet shows wear but the ET decal is basically mint (disparity of wear). I also see pieces of the edge missing (improper application or original ET decal that has begun to come apart due to age ? )

Before lot# research, this one would have been accepted out of hand (as it has on GHW2).

Lot# 3584 is currently the highest lot# for ckl M42 factory SD Heer according to my research. That helmet has the earlier lighter green gray paint. I believe that sometime after decals were dropped, factory paints took on generally darker shades (later '43 - '44), such as the paint seen here.

 

[NathanLM]

GHW2 lot number data base has ckl SD Heer all the way up to LN# 4692, with several being higher than you have observed. Just food for thought, interpret as you will.

 

[M45]

GHW2 lot number data base has ckl SD Heer all the way up to LN# 4692, with several being higher than you have observed. Just food for thought, interpret as you will.

Thanks for that comment. Yes, I realize that alleged SD Heer helmets are seen beyond what I have seen, but if those helmets were posted here for critique, I believe you would see multiple issues with them, such as the SD Heer above. (Take a look at post#1 of this thread for another)

IMO GHW2 does not go into as much detail as I do when vetting helmets for a list, so they will be more likely to let the 'baddies' get through : )

 

[M45]

Late M42 NS

http://www.oakleafmilitaria.com/images/108h1-1.jpg

108H1 - Army M42 single decal helmet by ckl. This near mint helmet features a 1005 decal. The helmet has a rough field gray finish that shows areas of wear that I attribute to storage and age rather than combat use. There are no areas of rust or dents. The interior features a liner in excellent to near mint condition. The dome stamp is clearly evident. The size 56 is stamped on one of the liner tongues. The ckl64 stamp is above the batch number. $1850.


While the HJ&K decal is correct for this maker/model, the lot# D545 is high IMO, in no-decal territory. Many of these HJ&K decals have found their way onto no-decal helmets during the postwar years. Notice the contrast of a new, bright decal on an aged helmet.

M42 NS66 D426 SD HEER ZSH RM SLATE NS/POCHER-DECAL LAST KNOWN SD HEER

M42 NS64 D545 ND SLATE ZSH RM NODATEDOME

 

[mauser99]

oakleaf is known for selling dubious stuff for sure... So they are selling a late lot NS as a late lot CKL SD ?????

Hey if you are going to lie just really screw it up ! ..... This Hubert and Jordan decal sure gets around. I really have only seen these used in the early period and WW1 re-issued shells..

 

[M45]

I have seen the Huber Jordan (HJ&K) decal factory applied to the NS M42 D-series, the NS M42 numbered series, late in the EF M40 and the EF M42.


M42 NS66 D347 SD HEER ZSH RM RBSTRAP RTGG HUBER JORDAN (HJ&K-DECAL) DOME

M42 NS64 3272 SD HEER ZSH SM SLATE HUBER JORDAN-DECAL (HJ&K) NODATEDOME


M40 EF66 21842 SD HEER ZSH RTGG HUBER JORDAN HJ&K-DECAL

M42 EF66 2453 SD HEER ZSH SMGS RTGG HUBER JORDAN (HJ&K) (ref: Ken N. p.338)

 

[mauser99]

are you saying these are noted as legitimate application or noting dubious application ?

 

[M45]

are you saying these are noted as legitimate application or noting dubious application ?

I believe that there were factory applications of the HJ&K Heer decal. Those listed are a few of those I believe to be genuine examples.

When the HJ&K is found elsewhere (re: CKL, Q, hkp, qvL) I treat it with suspicion as those with high lot numbers.

 

[mauser99]

I believe that there were factory applications of the HJ&K Heer decal. Those listed are a few of those I believe to be genuine examples.

When the HJ&K is found elsewhere (re: CKL, Q, hkp, qvL) I treat it with suspicion as those with high lot numbers.

So you have two other late NS shells with HJ&K decals noted ? But, this one is too late ? I personally would consider any NS without a CAP decal suspect unless it was a re-issue IMHO.

 

[M45]

I have seen a number of SD Heer helmets with the HJ&K decal that I thought were authentic, both on NS M42 and EF M40/M42.

The EF factory apparently procured helmet decals from a number of different sources because surviving examples show quite a variety of decal types used by this factory.

EF HEER decals: ET, Pocher, HJ&K
EF KM decals: ET, EF thinwing (HJ&K), EF thickwing (HJ&K)
EF SS decals; ET, Pocher, EF-ss




M42 NS66 D347 SD HEER ZSH RM RBSTRAP RTGG HUBER JORDAN (HJ&K-DECAL) DOME

M42 NS64 3272 SD HEER ZSH SM SLATE HUBER JORDAN-DECAL (HJ&K) NODATEDOME


M40 EF66 21842 SD HEER ZSH RTGG HUBER JORDAN HJ&K-DECAL

M42 EF66 2453 SD HEER ZSH SMGS RTGG HUBER JORDAN (HJ&K) (ref: Ken N. p.338)

 

[mauser99]

Interesting info. I haven't seen the sheer amount you have and I trust your judgment on the matter.
what rules I like to follow is.

ET -only ET decal.
EF. - as you mentioned HJK , ET/EF variant HJK thin wing. I have never seen a factory EF with CAP.
Q -early HJK or Other, Quist BF and ET KM only.
SE - only ET variant.
NS- CAP only.

This is of course not what everyone thinks but this is what Im comfortable with up to this point. I also collect M35 re-issues and have a wide array of decal variants on re-issues.

 

[M45]

Each decal branch has its own application history.

Quist, for example, used the big-foot Heer decal almost exclusively but occasionally used the ET Heer decal as well.

 

[mauser99]

Correct..

Q ET EF and SE for that matter used Aftermarket decals before their own Specific decal was developed. So the very early m35's are an exception.

ET was the only on to have an In house type KM decal and brokered it out to EF and Q and SE. EF used the HJ&K thin wing KM on late m40's and M42's.

I think it would be a good idea if someone wanted to do a pic-sticky thread for decals and a shell to decal relationship chart.

 

[M45]

Reissue

https://www.therupturedduck.com/col...d-reissue-model-1940-army-single-decal-helmet

This cool example features a hand applied, brushed on gray combat finish that remains 95% intact. There is an army decal on the left side that is excellent, checking in at 98% intact (no shellac is present). The brushed on, reissue finish continues into the skirt of the interior. There is a super clean, brown leather liner that is size stamped 54. There is just minor wear and a bit of scuffing to the lower edge. There is a drawstring and a reinforced aluminum liner band. The band has some of the reissue paint on it. The liner band is maker marked, dated 1939 and size stamped 54. Obscured by the reissue finish, it is difficult to rear the maker, size and lot stampings. It looks like it is ET 62 with just three of the number of the lot visible, 907. The rear skirt has the name of the owner, Major Ernst, in bold white paint. An excellent example! $ 1,350.00

Something about this one doesn't look right to me. Very little combat related wear IMO. Some pock marking near the crown. And that ET decal looks odd.

EDIT: This helmet has had a brush applied depot reissue finish. Depots were using reissue Heer decals, not factory decals like the ET and Q.

 

[M45]

M42 field police

http://www.germanhelmetdepot.com/html/_125f.html

M42 FIELD POLICE

Research indicates no M40/M42 field police production by the NS factory. If authentic, this would be a field/depot application. The beak of the eagle appears to have been cut off; a graphic feature I do not see on any of the field police decals listed in 'Germany's Combat Helmets 1933-1945' by Ken N. I do not have the latest decal book, so maybe someone can enlighten me ?

 

[M45]

SD HEER CKL 4557.

Posted on GHW2, a very convincing decal. However, lot# research indicates a problem with high lot#, 1944 dated band and 5-44 inkstamp.

Lot# research provides another way for collectors to detect postwar altered helmets. Many of us are not decal experts, but lot# research is an easy tool that anyone can use.

An apparently Euro-fake decal.



GHW2 lot number data base has ckl SD Heer all the way up to LN# 4692, with several being higher than you have observed. Just food for thought, interpret as you will. Nathan M.



GHW2 must be using my lot# reference and not their own. An example of a m42 CKL SD HEER helmet with a higher lot# (in the 4000 range) not passing muster.

Did somebody say that lot# research was "the savior of the hobby" ?? What a minute, that was in reference to XRFacts, wasn't' it ?

 

[M45]

M40 q64 dn382 sd heer

https://www.weitze.com/militaria/30/Heer_Stahlhelm_M40_mit_1_Emblem__265530.html

M40 Q64 DN382 SD HEER

Lot number research tells us that the last known SD Heer for the QM40 DN series is DN361. This last helmet had the factory big-foot heer decal applied. Lot# DN382 is past this point and should therefore should have been produced as a no decal helmet. Zooming in on this decal it is apparent that it is the HJ&K Huber Jordan Heer decal, not used by the Quist factory. HJ&K decals are known to have been liberally applied during the postwar years.

 

[mauser99]

https://www.therupturedduck.com/col...d-reissue-model-1940-army-single-decal-helmet

This cool example features a hand applied, brushed on gray combat finish that remains 95% intact. There is an army decal on the left side that is excellent, checking in at 98% intact (no shellac is present). The brushed on, reissue finish continues into the skirt of the interior. There is a super clean, brown leather liner that is size stamped 54. There is just minor wear and a bit of scuffing to the lower edge. There is a drawstring and a reinforced aluminum liner band. The band has some of the reissue paint on it. The liner band is maker marked, dated 1939 and size stamped 54. Obscured by the reissue finish, it is difficult to rear the maker, size and lot stampings. It looks like it is ET 62 with just three of the number of the lot visible, 907. The rear skirt has the name of the owner, Major Ernst, in bold white paint. An excellent example! $ 1,350.00

Something about this one doesn't look right to me. Very little combat related wear IMO. Some pock marking near the crown. And that ET decal looks odd.

EDIT: This helmet has had a brush applied depot reissue finish. Depots were using reissue Heer decals, not factory decals like the ET and Q.

Lots of un-applied ET decals floating around even to this day. Looks like the duck got phucked on this one.. Wouldn't be the 1st time a turd showed up on that site.. It was littered with bad camo's as well..