Unusual G43
- Thread starter NukemFG4A
- Start date
Not that I have seen.
There is an "N" stamped on the back end of reciever below safety lever. But no "NG"
Late War Rifle...
All,
I have been studying many aspects of German, late war produced weapons. As mentioned by others (particularly Mr Farb, a very knowledgeable gentleman) the letter "U" does appear on late war assembled P.38 pistols. There were several suppliers of letter stamps and also hand stamp applications (fatigue of the worker making the stamp) that lead to partial or "odd" symbols.
Below are two examples of late war letter "U" marked P.38 pistols (attributed to the Spreewerk) that seem to look very much like serif style "U" on the rifle in question. One is from a frame, the other is from a slide. It is an interesting coincidence!
The only conclusion that I can safely draw at this point in the discussion is that this probably is another late war attempt to arm the Volkssturm.
I would save this rifle for study rather than rebuild it as a shooter.
I will be at the upcoming Tulsa Show. Let me know if you happen to be there. If possible, I'd like to talk and look the rifle over. I have a portable microscope / PC for photographs and would like to know the dimensions of any of the stamps.
Please post a photo of the letter "N" or letter "G" as they may be clues. Bolt action VG rifles show variations of a Neuengamme stamp (rarely seen).
Thanks for the post! Further examples of the letter "U" are posted at the P38 Forum.
Dave
All,
I have been studying many aspects of German, late war produced weapons. As mentioned by others (particularly Mr Farb, a very knowledgeable gentleman) the letter "U" does appear on late war assembled P.38 pistols. There were several suppliers of letter stamps and also hand stamp applications (fatigue of the worker making the stamp) that lead to partial or "odd" symbols.
Below are two examples of late war letter "U" marked P.38 pistols (attributed to the Spreewerk) that seem to look very much like serif style "U" on the rifle in question. One is from a frame, the other is from a slide. It is an interesting coincidence!
The only conclusion that I can safely draw at this point in the discussion is that this probably is another late war attempt to arm the Volkssturm.
I would save this rifle for study rather than rebuild it as a shooter.
I will be at the upcoming Tulsa Show. Let me know if you happen to be there. If possible, I'd like to talk and look the rifle over. I have a portable microscope / PC for photographs and would like to know the dimensions of any of the stamps.
Please post a photo of the letter "N" or letter "G" as they may be clues. Bolt action VG rifles show variations of a Neuengamme stamp (rarely seen).
Thanks for the post! Further examples of the letter "U" are posted at the P38 Forum.
Dave
Attachments
NukemFG4A,
I'm not really sure there is a link between my pistols and your rifle, but it is an interesting coincidence!
In the last photo the letter may be a lower case "q" (aka small Q) the you are seeing upside down.
Often times the angle of the strike will leave strange or incomplete stamps.
This will lead to even more confusion for most of us.
Again, you have an interesting rifle.
I have visited Neuengamme Kz Museum and they have a G/K43 as part of their display material.
Through the case I could see the "ac" (Walther ID stamp) buy not much else.
Here is a link to another related, G43 receiver with a letter "U" on it.
The link => http://lmd-militaria.com/page0416.html
It resembles the other letters "U" that are more commonly found on last ditch P.38s.
Dave
I'm not really sure there is a link between my pistols and your rifle, but it is an interesting coincidence!
In the last photo the letter may be a lower case "q" (aka small Q) the you are seeing upside down.
Often times the angle of the strike will leave strange or incomplete stamps.
This will lead to even more confusion for most of us.
Again, you have an interesting rifle.
I have visited Neuengamme Kz Museum and they have a G/K43 as part of their display material.
Through the case I could see the "ac" (Walther ID stamp) buy not much else.
Here is a link to another related, G43 receiver with a letter "U" on it.
The link => http://lmd-militaria.com/page0416.html
It resembles the other letters "U" that are more commonly found on last ditch P.38s.
Dave
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So that is three G43's we have found with a "U"
Although this U is a non serif. Mine and the one that auctioned both had Serif "u" in same location.
This U is further up on receiver and styled differently.
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The "U" marking is pretty common across other German firearms, and usually indicates a part that has failed some waffenamt inspection and is not repairable or usable in Waffenamt approved production. I would say there probably isn't any connection with the "U" marking on P.38's other than what I stated, that the rifle or at least receiver was unfit for Waffenamt approved production. I have seen swp45 rifles with a "U" marked barrel - the "U" markings are normally placed in locations that waffenamts are typically located, or used to cancel out waffenamts. Also, the cutaway Erma rifles have U markings on parts over stamping waffenamts. Finally, some late war commercial K98k rifles have U marks covering stock inspection markings, etc.
I'm glad you decided to keep it together, good man!
I'm glad you decided to keep it together, good man!
Ron from Minnesota
Active member
Although interesting theories I would say that further research and evidence would be required to link this to the "U's" seen on late war Spreewerk pistols. I have spent 30+ years researching P.38s, particularly Spreewerk pistols manufactured and assembled at the Spreewerk Grottau factory. This has been along with my friend and colleague Jan Balcar of the Czech Repbulic. Although the "U" marking on late war Spreewerk pistols appears both as to cancel out acceptance stamps, it also appears to be used independently as if it were in place of an inspection stamp.
I also find this comment interesting:
I am wondering what source or evidence you have that P.38s were ever assembled at Neuengamme? Although it has been rumored some assembly of P.38s was to take place there I have never seen any evidence.
So I don't mean to hijack this thread and turn it into something about P.38s but I find some of the comments interesting.
Ron
I also find this comment interesting:
I am wondering what source or evidence you have that P.38s were ever assembled at Neuengamme? Although it has been rumored some assembly of P.38s was to take place there I have never seen any evidence.
So I don't mean to hijack this thread and turn it into something about P.38s but I find some of the comments interesting.
Ron
M1903A3
Keeper of the Def's Head
This is a great thread, love the late war stuff and trying to decode it. Was someone trying to assemble guns using rejected parts to arm the Volksturm? Maybe it’s too much to link the strap and the “U” and Volksturm weapon needs, just a thought.
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
GunKraut
Senior Member
This is directly from an exhibit located in the former Neuengamme Metallwerke building (Walther Werke):
Source: http://neuengamme-ausstellungen.info/media/ngmedia/browse/5/18 Click on the table icon ("Tischablauf") in the center of the Walther-Werke desk.
There's also a reference in this book: https://books.google.com/books?id=zqzWBQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=pi%2038&f=false
Either way, from what I understand the P38 production was short lived (7-8 months) and production changed over to G43 of which about 150 were manufactured in Neuengamme per day.
Unusual G43...
GunKraut, All,
I have visited Neuengamme and spoke to the Director of the Museum. Almost the entire collection of SS records from the beginning of its operation were destroyed before the British Army arrived. I was able to copy the two "Walther" files that the museum houses. One deals with the surviving wartime records the second is a collection of post war Walther advertisements.
The most telling document regarding any serial production of P.38 pistols was a communication of apology from the commanding SS general (Pohl I believe) explaining to Himmler that the P.38 pistol production machinery simply was not going to be available and the production needs would be better served by assembling the k/G43 rifle. There may have been some very small scale training of prisoners to assemble P.38s, but nothing of military usefulness was accomplished.
The real explanation may lie with some small scale assembly that may have taken place at one of the more than 90 sub-camps administered by Neuengamme. Records on those locations are also non-existent. The SS were especially efficient at covering their tracks and exterminating the prisoners. The last 2500 were put aboard two ships and sent out from the harbor at Hamburg on May the 3rd or 4th. The Typhoon fighter bombers sank both ships and only a hand full of occupants survived. One survivor was the sone of an American surgeon that had been arrested along with his father and sent to Neuengamme. The father lost his life aboard one of these two ships. I have been in contact with this Neuengamme survivor, he worked in the kitchen area, and he said he had no knowledge of P.38 pistols being assembled in his (the main) camp.
Despite Dutch videos of Neuengamme on You Tube (and other sources), There is no proof that P.38 pistols were produced at the Hamburg area camp known as Neuengamme.
I apologize if I've come off as a know-it-all. If new developments have been discovered or published, I am unaware of them.
Dave
GunKraut, All,
I have visited Neuengamme and spoke to the Director of the Museum. Almost the entire collection of SS records from the beginning of its operation were destroyed before the British Army arrived. I was able to copy the two "Walther" files that the museum houses. One deals with the surviving wartime records the second is a collection of post war Walther advertisements.
The most telling document regarding any serial production of P.38 pistols was a communication of apology from the commanding SS general (Pohl I believe) explaining to Himmler that the P.38 pistol production machinery simply was not going to be available and the production needs would be better served by assembling the k/G43 rifle. There may have been some very small scale training of prisoners to assemble P.38s, but nothing of military usefulness was accomplished.
The real explanation may lie with some small scale assembly that may have taken place at one of the more than 90 sub-camps administered by Neuengamme. Records on those locations are also non-existent. The SS were especially efficient at covering their tracks and exterminating the prisoners. The last 2500 were put aboard two ships and sent out from the harbor at Hamburg on May the 3rd or 4th. The Typhoon fighter bombers sank both ships and only a hand full of occupants survived. One survivor was the sone of an American surgeon that had been arrested along with his father and sent to Neuengamme. The father lost his life aboard one of these two ships. I have been in contact with this Neuengamme survivor, he worked in the kitchen area, and he said he had no knowledge of P.38 pistols being assembled in his (the main) camp.
Despite Dutch videos of Neuengamme on You Tube (and other sources), There is no proof that P.38 pistols were produced at the Hamburg area camp known as Neuengamme.
I apologize if I've come off as a know-it-all. If new developments have been discovered or published, I am unaware of them.
Dave
Attachments
Ron from Minnesota
Active member
I am curious. What in your mind identifies this variation of P.38s that was produced at Neuengamme for those 7-8 months?
I should mention that Dave (Eger) and I are moderators over on the P.38 Forum. Dave has spent countless hours researching this. I have seen the display and blurbs in books about this, as well as the archives and links, and am aware of the plan to perhaps produce some P.38s at Neuengamme. I have also approached this from many different ways to try and find any actual evidence including help from German and European friends. I do have to say that not one scintilla of evidence has appeared so far that confirms any actual production or assembly there. Although it is an ongoing research project there is nothing new at this point and I agree with Dave.
That is why I asked the question. Perhaps new additional information will turn up at some point.
Ron
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I don't think they are saying it isn't possible just that there is no evidence. The more I look into WWII there is no evidence of a lot of things. Was it all destroyed? Is it hidden away somewhere, or did it never exist? I don't know the answers but I suspect a lot is held in Russia.
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GunKraut
Senior Member
Fair enough. I'm proficient at reading and understanding German documents and did some casual search for German documents pertaining to Metallwerke Neuengamme production. If there wasn't any production of P38 at Neuengamme, then I'm at a loss why the Neuengamme exhibits would say otherwise, unless the curator made it up or misinterpreted surviving documents. If there was any production or even attempts to set up a production line, it would have been sometime between January 1943 to maybe August 1943 (G43 production was set up around this time). Maybe, as Eger claimed, there never was anything beyond initial assembly trials and training using parts supplied by Zella-Mehlis. The machines needed to produce a handgun from raw stock are much smaller in size than those needed for rifle production, usually a lathe, a mill and a shaping machine but could have been repurposed for producing or finishing small parts for G43 rifles. The forged receivers were already supplied in finished state by St. Etienne (maybe leftovers from Buchenwald?) and Walther Werke Zella-Mehlis and assuming that barrels and probably stocks also arrived in finished state, the Neuengamme tasks were reduced primarily to assembly.
As for "I only believe what I see with me own eyes", there have been late war K98 rifles that were initially considered fantasy products or post war builds until enough of them had emerged and a pattern could be established.
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All,
Sorry to have created any controversy on your web site. I appreciate that my expertise is limited (at best) to the P.38 pistol. I had hoped that wider sets of interested eyes might somehow find a definitive answer to a few more of these mysteries that so confuse and fascinate myself and a few others.
Hopefully two things will come out of this discussion.
One is that the rifle in question is probably a bit more interesting than it had originally appeared. I think the owner understands that.
Second is that as collectors we all have something new to look for; the letter "U". I'll now be looking at lots of old rifles and perhaps a few of you will now notice a P.38 or two. Either way, the more help we all have in hunting down these details, the better.
Lastly, if I ever get to the bottom of things I certainly will add a post here that will help share the lost details. Good hunting to you all!
Dave
Sorry to have created any controversy on your web site. I appreciate that my expertise is limited (at best) to the P.38 pistol. I had hoped that wider sets of interested eyes might somehow find a definitive answer to a few more of these mysteries that so confuse and fascinate myself and a few others.
Hopefully two things will come out of this discussion.
One is that the rifle in question is probably a bit more interesting than it had originally appeared. I think the owner understands that.
Second is that as collectors we all have something new to look for; the letter "U". I'll now be looking at lots of old rifles and perhaps a few of you will now notice a P.38 or two. Either way, the more help we all have in hunting down these details, the better.
Lastly, if I ever get to the bottom of things I certainly will add a post here that will help share the lost details. Good hunting to you all!
Dave
