1916 Spandau Sterngewehr

[chrisftk]

Hi all, I thought I'd post a Gew 98 and be a bit more relevant to our focus before I did another antique. Haha.

This one was a GB buy and despite having a m/m bolt, I thought it was a nice pick-up, as Sterngewehren don't grow on trees in collector grade. The rifle is essentially untouched and the bolt has been with it for a very long time.

The stock is very interesting. It looks like an Amberg armorer stock that had spandau acceptance added (including a wrist acceptance overstamp) The bp suffix is "a", which I suppose is equivalent of the "1" suffix. The grasping grooves with the old unit disc is a variation I have not owned before.

Anyway, here is the data:

Receiver: 1327 1
Barrel: 1327 1
Bolt: m/m
Stock: 1327
Handguard: 1327
Trigger guard: 1327
Floorplate: 27
Screws: 27 (x2)
Follower: 27
Rear sight leaf: 27
Rear sight slide: 27
Ejector box: 27
Buttplate: 1327 ("a" suffix)
Rear Band: 27
Front Band: 27
Bayo lug: 27
Front sight: 27
Cleaning rod: 27 (thanks Jeff!)

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[chrisftk]

More pics

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[Loewe]

It is good you were able to pick this up, the stock is especially neat! I need to save the pictures for a good examination, but I did do some quick observations.... these Spandau made sterngewehrs have significant differences from normal production, which to me indicates that these were made on a separate line with some inspectors not involved in normal production.

The stocks do keep some acceptance patterns found on normal production, but metal often seems unique, same too with these special barrels, - these are almost never seen on standard production. Though the BC is in front of the RS which is a near unique trait for Berlin based firms.

The stock is indicative of an expedient assembly, the counterstruck wrist but obvious use of Spandau based acceptance (C/Z is near synonymous with Berlin and or Spandau). These Spandau made sterngewehrs seem primarily inspected by C/Q and transition to C/M (or W) and the C/Q is narrowly identified with Spandau in a narrow range (L-P I think off hand, but a short 3-4 block use in 1916), transition to C/M, or is that backward? I will have a better memory with the facts appearing over my nose... the important thing is that Spandau sterngewehrs seem independent of normal production, possibly connected with the Hannovers? Hard to say without further examinations and comparisons. Now this may seem obvious, but both WMO and Danzig fed these sterngewers into normal production.

Very strange either way, but sterngewehr production is possibly the least studied thoroughly....

*** Great rifle but I wish you would upload jpg! Have a little compassion for those of us still dealing with the 1990's....!

 

[PrayingMantis]

It's interesting that the stock serial font is Amberg, and the letterblock is on the buttplate. Would Spandau have ordered pre-serial numbered stocks from Amberg? Seems unlikely that Spandau would serial number a rifle to a stock. Either way its odd to me, we need more examples!

 

[Loewe]

Yes, interesting about the style of the buttplate serialing, certainly Amberg style more than Spandau's... that is a bit confusing to explain!

WHat is for sure, or at least more than probable, is that the stock acceptance is pure Spandau. The C/A (common to Amberg starting mid-1917) counter-stamped by C/Z (which is typical of Spandau through 1915 to near the end of 1916), also the Prussian cypher over C/M(?) certainly is not Amberg.

Amberg dd supply spares to the ordnance system or to Prussian arsenals, though I do not know in what numbers, I think Storz covers the numbers and components. I suspect Amberg was chosen for this in part because they did not seem to diverge into other manufacture, only the G98, whereas Danzig and others were involved in machine guns or pistols components.

That buttplate serialing is tricky to "explain"! Maybe a coincidence that the stock and buttplate seem Amberg or some how Amberg/Ingolstadt handled the rifle at some point. Pure guessing either way.

 

[Loewe]

Or maybe backwards, Spandau made sterngewehr passing though Amberg/Ingolstadt and gets a new buttplate or new serialing? (and C/A over the C/Z, which came first?) Still the stock serialing looks more Bavarianish than Prussianish!

 

[Loewe]

1916 Spandau 3328 4

1916 Spandau 3328 4

Stock and BP/BC comparision, similar to subject rifle, though most of these seem to have C/Q under the cypher, even some in the 1-block. Unfortunately limited available rifles give good comparisions of the 4-5 features, though quite a few show the BC. But, for whatever reason, these serial fonts on the metal seem to hold a more typical "Spandau" block style and the stock or wood seem to be slightly more elaborate, more akin to Amberg than normal Spandau.

 

[Loewe]

1916 Spandau 3026 1

1916 Spandau 3026 1

This is the closest rifle to the subject rifle, pictures from April 2019, possibly on this forum, but I post these because it shows the matched bolt and acceptance that Chris will need if he ever wants to upgrade it (not saying he does), unfortunately the stock details are slim, not serial or acceptance for comparison, but does show the C/Q which seems more common for Spandau sterngewehrs (36 recordings, some just reports or couple pictures, 14 of which are Spandau/16 receivers - does not include the Spandau/16 receivers built up by others arsenals or WMO/Dresden)

Anyway, sorry to say limited comparisons can be made yet, MauserBill and MikeF once had 1916 Spandau 6620 3, but stock acceptance is slim imaged, serial fonts and RS (C/Q) is shown, but nothing else clearly. Several others like that, but few thoroughly detailed...

*** C/Q on the RR (second position only) is known 1916 L-O blocks. Whether this corresponds to this observed sterngewehr C/Q in relationship is unknown, but C/Q is not typically seen on Spandau stock acceptance (only on sterngewehr)

 

[Loewe]

1916 Spandau 1344 a EWB

Not directly related, but some similarities, this is a rifle off of eGun some years back (I think, maybe a German forum Wolfgang linked me to) but it shows an Bavarian (Amberg/Ingolstadt) link and may serve some interest to this thread. Poor pictures but good enough to see some similarities, C/A over C/Z keeping the original Spandau/Prussian stock, re-barrel etc...

 

[chrisftk]

*** Great rifle but I wish you would upload jpg! Have a little compassion for those of us still dealing with the 1990's....!

Haha, I'll see what I can do. I think it might be a setting I need to change.

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[chrisftk]

Or maybe backwards, Spandau made sterngewehr passing though Amberg/Ingolstadt and gets a new buttplate or new serialing? (and C/A over the C/Z, which came first?) Still the stock serialing looks more Bavarianish than Prussianish!

Yeah, I agree with the Bavarianish look to it.

My initial theory (which still might be a possibility) is that "a" was used on the buttplate as they didn't have a "1" suffix die wherever it was numbered.

My 16 Erfurt Sterngewehr does have the "3" suffix on the buttplate, so if that was the case, it appears a "Spandau" problem.

My 17 Erfurt * does not have the original stock, and my Dresden is no suffix block, so no help there on seeing if it was isolated. Sadly, only folks like us think to photograph that (and I'll admit, I only became aware of the buttplate suffix because of you Paul)

Either way, I find Sterngewehren very interesting (odd builds in general actually) Sadly, one of the biggest gaps in Storz. The one page dedicated to non-Dresden Sterngewehr is simply not enough.

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[Loewe]

In all fairness, before Storz I hadn't noticed the suffix on the buttplate, even still I am not convinced it is always applied, though I'm probably wrong... or at least it was usually applied and wear patterns on the buttplate or weak strikes on a curved edge make them difficult to identify.

I think Storz greatest weakness, beyond the translation (his 88 & 71 book are much better, get the subtleties better), is his variations, especially sterngewehrs, he does place them in context well, because of his access to archives or documents, but is very weak across the board on actual production, years made, how common each maker is (numbers made), the numerous oddities that are so common (1915 receiver builds, Hannovers, E-receivers, reworking and subcontracting... Jon has provided more along the latter and he wold have help Storz make a better product, - as Mike and Bruce can attest, between his mastery of English and archives he would have been invaluable to Storz books...)

But Storz made the single greatest contribution to this field, even with its many faults (which are easy to nitpick), because of his books far more is known today than before, - he is what Tacitus and Gibbons are to history for us in German military rifle studies (for English speakers - Or maybe Herodotus is more apt, seeing as he is so unreliable in interpretation)

Yeah, I agree with the Bavarianish look to it.

My initial theory (which still might be a possibility) is that "a" was used on the buttplate as they didn't have a "1" suffix die wherever it was numbered.

My 16 Erfurt Sterngewehr does have the "3" suffix on the buttplate, so if that was the case, it appears a "Spandau" problem.

My 17 Erfurt * does not have the original stock, and my Dresden is no suffix block, so no help there on seeing if it was isolated. Sadly, only folks like us think to photograph that (and I'll admit, I only became aware of the buttplate suffix because of you Paul)

Either way, I find Sterngewehren very interesting (odd builds in general actually) Sadly, one of the biggest gaps in Storz. The one page dedicated to non-Dresden Sterngewehr is simply not enough.

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[Loewe]

Newer programs have a converter that automatically changes them to jpg or whatever you chose, but my old (main) computer doesn't have the capability, plus a primitive internet connection makes this doubly difficult. But I started up my wife's old laptop and it is far newer than my old pc.

I have not "embraced" technology and its march through our society, I think it offers more evils than good, especially when you consider the character of those developing these changes (individual liberty, free thought and speech as well as privacy are the least of their concerns, - also their increasingly close ties with the central government is especially worrying... whose bread I eat is whose song I sing...)

Anyway, for my needs I prefer my old computer for I use it for a very limited purpose. Books are better friends!

*** Basically keep doing as you like, now that I have my wife's laptop I can convert and transfer, might be safer anyway as these old pc's I hear are more susceptible to hackers, not that they would get anything important. I think I will move to using my main computer as a off-line base for my research, though laptops are hard to "enjoy" harder to read and far more difficult to type!

Haha, I'll see what I can do. I think it might be a setting I need to change.

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