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Reichsheer bolt identification

Gerst

Senior Member
I have a 98 b that has a non-matching “early” bolt with the Waffenamt eagle but have a chance to buy an earlier bolt which seller says is Reichsheer Waffenamt stamp e/16 or e/11 under the bolt arm. Is this a better substitute? Who made it? Sorry to be so dumb! No photos available yet.
 
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Here is the present bolt. Is it pre-1933?

The number is 86.

It is a mixmaster
 

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Doesn't look proper for a 98b bolt, maybe do more pictures??

As for being dumb on such things, get in line with the rest of us, we are all learning and there are no stupid questions, - except those that are not asked! Try and do more pictures and maybe we will see something that can definitively answer your question, but I do not see a e/11 or e/16 or the typical Republican era acceptance. However any 98b would pre-date 1933, exception maybe the S28's but that is more difficult to judge with what is currently known, - but Simson did not make the 98b as late as 1933 (in 1933 they had more pressing problems..)

** e/11 and e/16 would be Republican era acceptance though, I just don't see either here.
 
Doesn't look proper for a 98b bolt, maybe do more pictures??

As for being dumb on such things, get in line with the rest of us, we are all learning and there are no stupid questions, - except those that are not asked! Try and do more pictures and maybe we will see something that can definitively answer your question, but I do not see a e/11 or e/16 or the typical Republican era acceptance. However any 98b would pre-date 1933, exception maybe the S28's but that is more difficult to judge with what is currently known, - but Simson did not make the 98b as late as 1933 (in 1933 they had more pressing problems..)

** e/11 and e/16 would be Republican era acceptance though, I just don't see either here.

The pictured bolt is the one on my Karabiner 98 b now. The seller acknowledged that it was not a 98b bolt, only that it was an “early” bolt, it has a straight-wing eagle.

The one I have a chance to buy is the one with droop-wing eagle with either a 16 or an 11. I’d like to know which manufacturer used these codes and whether that bolt is more appropriate since a Simson e/6 is so hard to find these days.
 
The bolt in your rifle isn’t early, that’s a later Brünn bolt with an RC bolt shroud on it.
 
The bolt in your rifle isn’t early, that’s a later Brünn bolt with an RC bolt shroud on it.

The bolt doesn’t match itself. It was likely assembled using loose parts. How did you ID the body? By RC do you mean Russian capture?
 
The bolt in your rifle isn’t early, that’s a later Brünn bolt with an RC bolt shroud on it.

That was my bad, when I looked at it quickly I saw 63 and thought early Oberndorf. I don't recall what it originally came with back in 1992 but it wasn't correct either.
 
That was my bad, when I looked at it quickly I saw 63 and thought early Oberndorf. I don't recall what it originally came with back in 1992 but it wasn't correct either.

I’ll try to clean it up to see if it 63. No problem either way.
 
Is the e/16 bolt appropriate for a 98 b?

While it would be nice to identify the present bolt, I’m more interested in finding whether a bolt with droop wing e/16 is a better “fit” for my rifle and which manufacturer made that bolt. Can anyone help me out there?
 
I generally do not like to work off memory, when I post I try to have some semblance of "certainty" in hand.... however...

I am not sure that I have seen a e/16 bolt before, I am away from my database, but off hand e/16 is seen in the Republican era. I think it is of the same era of the S28 and Zeithain builds, though not directly associated with SImson. though I would have to check whether Simson or Wuk used this acceptance. My recollection is that it was used on rearsight components which I associated with DWM-Oberspree, though I think Simson may have used it very early. Though not on bolts. If it were on a bolt I would suspect Zeithain, but I am not sure there exists a Zeithein matched to bolt known, they are very rare rifles, in upper grades next to unheard of. It is probably the rarest rifle variation of the Republican era and rarely found in upper grades, off hand I would say no example is known original matching.

If you have found a bolt with e/16 acceptance, you should buy it as it is certainly rare.
 
I generally do not like to work off memory, when I post I try to have some semblance of "certainty" in hand.... however...

I am not sure that I have seen a e/16 bolt before, I am away from my database, but off hand e/16 is seen in the Republican era. I think it is of the same era of the S28 and Zeithain builds, though not directly associated with SImson. though I would have to check whether Simson or Wuk used this acceptance. My recollection is that it was used on rearsight components which I associated with DWM-Oberspree, though I think Simson may have used it very early. Though not on bolts. If it were on a bolt I would suspect Zeithain, but I am not sure there exists a Zeithein matched to bolt known, they are very rare rifles, in upper grades next to unheard of. It is probably the rarest rifle variation of the Republican era and rarely found in upper grades, off hand I would say no example is known original matching.

If you have found a bolt with e/16 acceptance, you should buy it as it is certainly rare.

Serial number on the e/16 bolt is 4599.
 
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Gerst, does it look like this?
5c1e2e48b3bf3ae86a6faf47715349cd.jpg


This is off my S/147G (early Sauer)-- the acceptance is e/116, but the middle "1" is lightly struck. I thought maybe it was one of these, as I don't recall ever seeing a e/16 bolt on anything.





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The bolt doesn’t match itself. It was likely assembled using loose parts. How did you ID the body? By RC do you mean Russian capture?

Yes Russian Capture, probably the whole bolt, but at least the shroud is. There is more to look at than just the Waffleampts for identification, but you have also only shown a single picture. The machining, fonts etc start to become recognizable.
 
Present bolt

I removed the internal mechanism of the bolt and took (crappy) pictures. It is an e/63 body. The shroud & safety tab are jet black - Russian capture black. The extractor has the cherry coat. I didn’t remove it or the firing pin. The safety is numbered 4566 and has an “m” on the back and some clumsy etching. The rear is numbered “81.” The shroud has numbers also. See pics. It looks like the whole bolt is black and likely a Russian capture, as indicated above.
 

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Had a little time to look up waffenamts in the Republican era, though I have no formal trends of such acceptance patterns outside of Simson and Zeithain production trends work. The only certain connection is Zeithain in 1927, a good range of the production have RR WaA16 (only in 1927 though), but I do not have any example that is original bolt matching... though I would say such a serial in the 4500 range would be far beyond what trends suggest as normal ranges for that year at Zeithain, though we know very little about this HZa and their production 1924-1928(*).

We do know that they (Zn) also reworked G98's during this period, though rarely, there are a couple of Imperial rifles that carry the Zn atop the receiver, but retain some of it their original parts (and original serial), - though carry Zeithain waffenamts under the original Imperial acceptance.

I should say, although this doesn't necessarily demand corresponding adherence to Simson patterns (Simson being a private concern, operating under contract making new rifles and pistols, necessarily would have a more formal pattern), Simson "generally" used E/6 for early bolts although 1925-1927 they were inspected by E/14 also, but so far only E/6 bolts are known (so few exist that we should hesitate in our certainties - but "it seems" while RR may carry other waffenamt inspectors, in this time frame bolts, barrels and components carry the primary inspector), though in later production E/43, E/46, E/76 & E/81 bolts and components are seen.

I checked WuK also, no luck on E/16, almost all are E/61 early and E/46 for most of production, though HZa Su/25 is seen on a number of bayonets, I assume passing through Spandau at some point.. they are a queer lot, very diverse, lots of RM use which may account for this diversity.

Lastly, I want to say Rheinmetall has an association with E/16, though I didn't seem able to confirm it in the limited time available, but this would hardly make a legitimate link to a rifle bolt. If I get the time I will see if I can find out my observations on Rheinmetall production, but there was an early (low, might be E/14) waffenamt used on their equipment, but may not be E/16.

*** in short, if you have a E/WaA16 bolt, best guess is it is Zeithain, though such a high serial does seem to introduce some doubt, in 1926 they approached this 4500 range, but falls sort so far, but the E/16 is only known in 1927 (1926 E/11. E/12, E/13 and E/14 are recorded) and they barely made half that production (serial) range. However, it seems the most likely possibility. It would be helpful to see this WaA16 bolt as reporting markings do not give the same impression as the ability to make comparisons (fireproofs, fonts, associated characteristics, markings etc..) .
 
Had a little time to look up waffenamts in the Republican era, though I have no formal trends of such acceptance patterns outside of Simson and Zeithain production trends work. The only certain connection is Zeithain in 1927, a good range of the production have RR WaA16 (only in 1927 though), but I do not have any example that is original bolt matching... though I would say such a serial in the 4500 range would be far beyond what trends suggest as normal ranges for that year at Zeithain, though we know very little about this HZa and their production 1924-1928(*).

We do know that they (Zn) also reworked G98's during this period, though rarely, there are a couple of Imperial rifles that carry the Zn atop the receiver, but retain some of it their original parts (and original serial), - though carry Zeithain waffenamts under the original Imperial acceptance.

I should say, although this doesn't necessarily demand corresponding adherence to Simson patterns (Simson being a private concern, operating under contract making new rifles and pistols, necessarily would have a more formal pattern), Simson "generally" used E/6 for early bolts although 1925-1927 they were inspected by E/14 also, but so far only E/6 bolts are known (so few exist that we should hesitate in our certainties - but "it seems" while RR may carry other waffenamt inspectors, in this time frame bolts, barrels and components carry the primary inspector), though in later production E/43, E/46, E/76 & E/81 bolts and components are seen.

I checked WuK also, no luck on E/16, almost all are E/61 early and E/46 for most of production, though HZa Su/25 is seen on a number of bayonets, I assume passing through Spandau at some point.. they are a queer lot, very diverse, lots of RM use which may account for this diversity.

Lastly, I want to say Rheinmetall has an association with E/16, though I didn't seem able to confirm it in the limited time available, but this would hardly make a legitimate link to a rifle bolt. If I get the time I will see if I can find out my observations on Rheinmetall production, but there was an early (low, might be E/14) waffenamt used on their equipment, but may not be E/16.

*** in short, if you have a E/WaA16 bolt, best guess is it is Zeithain, though such a high serial does seem to introduce some doubt, in 1926 they approached this 4500 range, but falls sort so far, but the E/16 is only known in 1927 (1926 E/11. E/12, E/13 and E/14 are recorded) and they barely made half that production (serial) range. However, it seems the most likely possibility. It would be helpful to see this WaA16 bolt as reporting markings do not give the same impression as the ability to make comparisons (fireproofs, fonts, associated characteristics, markings etc..) .

The seller was recommended to me by a member here. He sells a lot of Mauser parts on eBay. He used to be a gunsmith in Texas. I asked him to shoot me a photo but he is very busy with buying trips, listings and shipping taking up much of his time. I told him to hold the bolt for me. Any “droop wing” bolt is more appropriate than the RC bolt which is in my 98b now!
 

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