Spandau Zündnadelpioniergewher (U/M) #3632

chrisftk

Moderator²
Staff member
Hi All,

This was one I was excited to unbox. Every once in a while Gunbroker goes crazy in the other direction-- this was one case. This was listed with a somewhat incorrect description, but decent pics. I threw my max up and sort of lost track until it hammered cheap.. I'm scratching my head, but hey ! 🤷‍♂️

This is a pretty esoteric and rare Dreyse variant intended for the Prussian pioneer battalions. These began life as M54 Jägerbüchse/Pikenbüchse, a short action needle rifle used by Jäger battalions and some naval units-- with the introduction of the M65 Jägerbüchse, many old M54s were no longer needed and converted for use with pioneer troops. The conversion included cutting down the barrel approximately 5 inches, re-configuring the bayonet lug and front band (to something resembling the M60 fusilier rifle), and modifying the needle guide to accommodate the carbine size rounds. The rear sight was also simplified. The stock had the band spring slits plugged with wood inserts and a new combination sling loop/fastening screw was added to retain the barrel in the stock. The first round of the conversions was issued to the Guard Pioneer Battalion in 1866, while subsequent allotments were made to most of the remaining battalions in the following years. While initially called the Zündnadelpioniergewher, after the debut of the newer M69 Zündnadelpioniergewher the U/M (Umgeändertes Modell / Modified Model) designation was added to these for clarity.

This particular example is a real dandy because it is completely textbook for the known conversion process. These simply haven't turned up and it's nice to see one and study it in detail. The rifle began life as an M54 built at Spandau in 1857 and was part of the initial round of conversions as noted by the 1866 re-date and Guard Pioneer unit marking on the buttplate. The stock displays the telltale wood inserts and there even appears to have been reapplication of side acceptance during the rework(You can see another fainter cypher on top of the crisper one) There is also a Landwehr/Landsturm unit marking on the nose cap; likely from its later service history.

The needle is broken, but the rifle completely matches. Interestingly, there is an old tag with "AD 1842" near the rear of the action. My friend with an unaltered M54 has an identical tag with a different number. We were thinking perhaps an old museum inventory tag or collector identifier. Based on my review, the sling *may* be original to the rifle. It's pretty fragile-- there's also a chance it's a very old repro, but hard to say. The marking on the face of the receiver may be tied to the reworking, but I have not been able to confirm that.

In any case, thanks for looking and hope you enjoy the pics.





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Sources:
ALSTON-ROBERTS-WEST, L. (2019). Dreyse military needle-ignition system: An illustrated history. WOODFIELD Publishing.
 
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Wow! Excellent score Chris, wonderful photos of another variant I never even knew about. Glad you are now its caretaker.
 
Wow, that is in incredible shape for being over 160 years old. Can't think of a better owner for such a rare piece. Congrats and thanks for sharing it with us! I learned something new today.
 
Wow! Excellent score Chris, wonderful photos of another variant I never even knew about. Glad you are now its caretaker.
Wow, that is in incredible shape for being over 160 years old. Can't think of a better owner for such a rare piece. Congrats and thanks for sharing it with us! I learned something new today.
Beautiful rifle and excellent tale of the conversion. Thanks for the "Bring & Brag".

G2
Thanks guys. Dreyse rifles are a pretty dark rabbit hole as even the "common" ones are harder to find nice.

You can trace a lot of practices back to these early pre-unification guns-- compare these acceptance markings with that of an M71, for instance.

I'm also a sucker for the Spandau, Saarn/Erfurt and Danzig eagle on these. So classy and old world. 🤣
 
Neat to see the level of craftsmanship even at this early date. There must be 200 separate stamps on the metal and wood. And it even has the sling! Very cool Chris.
Edit:
What is the K3:1 stamp on the receiver? Any guess? It looks like it was applied in a ham fisted manner when compared to other stamps.
Your home must resemble the Smithsonian!
 
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Hell of a find, Chris! The reworked stock fascinates me. The nicely patched band spring slots could easily escape notice. The reapplied cypher is very interesting, appearing right next to the original, which looks lighter. I imagine some level of sanding was done, but obviously there was no desire to eradicate the old cypher.
 
So what kept me coming back to this sight besides the cool rifles was the level of knowledge at this forum along with I always click away from this sight learning something new. I can’t add much to this informative post for something this early for it certainly isn’t my wheelhouse, but I do appreciate these early rifles. I find the cheek piece especially cool for this early of a firearm. I always love the brass mixed in with hardwood…..You have a sweet early collection Chris!!!
 
Neat to see the level of craftsmanship even at this early date. There must be 200 separate stamps on the metal and wood. And it even has the sling! Very cool Chris.
Your home must resemble the Smithsonian!
Thanks Rick. I can imagine trying to machine one of these things with mid 1800s tooling. There were likely more points of inspection due to the technology and hand-knitted parts.

Hardly a Smithsonian, but I do provide tours and a free scotch/cigar pairing after 🤣
What is the K3:1 stamp on the receiver? Any guess? It looks like it was applied in a ham fisted manner when compared to other stamps.
I'm still trying to figure that out. I initially thought part of the rework, but I'm now leaning toward maybe a museum marking.
Hell of a find, Chris! The reworked stock fascinates me. The nicely patched band spring slots could easily escape notice. The reapplied cypher is very interesting, appearing right next to the original, which looks lighter. I imagine some level of sanding was done, but obviously there was no desire to eradicate the old cypher.
Thanks Cyrus! The wood patches are extremely well done. I'm assuming some level of sanding occured, as the old cypher is fainter (not to mention how well-fitted the patches are) After 150+ years, it's tough to say.
 
I'm glad you got this Chris. I was kind of excited when you told me you won this rifle. Great photos to. I love the Dreyse family photo. I never knew there was that many variants.
 
I'm glad you got this Chris. I was kind of excited when you told me you won this rifle. Great photos to. I love the Dreyse family photo. I never knew there was that many variants.
Thanks Mike-- I've only scratched the surface of variants. There's a couple "major" variants I still need, but lots of ones from other states, defensive conversions, etc. I doubt I'll find everything in my lifetime. If I can get all the "main" Prussian ones I'd be happy.
 
I always surf Gun Broker even though many bad mouth it. Perfect example of dropping a line in the old fishing hole and scoring a trophy catch.
 
Nice one Chris! The brass AD.1842. inventory collection label makes this particular rifle very desirable. German armories attached brass labels to weapons in their collections. This may very well be a WW2 vet bring back. Many German armory collections were liberated during the war and some of their weapons ended up in the US as vets returned home.

Below you will find a similar brass label liberated from Wilhelmshöhe, Kassel armory.
734426_detail5_maxCr.jpg
 
I always surf Gun Broker even though many bad mouth it. Perfect example of dropping a line in the old fishing hole and scoring a trophy catch.
100% sometimes you just never know. It's deals like this that help you feel better about going high on other items you really want.

Nice one Chris! The brass AD.1842. inventory collection label makes this particular rifle very desirable. German armories attached brass labels to weapons in their collections. This may very well be a WW2 vet bring back. Many German armory collections were liberated during the war and some of their weapons ended up in the US as vets returned home.

Below you will find a similar brass label liberated from Wilhelmshöhe, Kassel armory.
View attachment 350762
That is an excellent bit of information. I had assumed an old museum or maybe collector, but an arsenal collection is very cool. I'm wondering what A.D. would stand for.

Either way, thank you. I'll pass that along to my friend that has the same tag on his.
 
That is an excellent bit of information. I had assumed an old museum or maybe collector, but an arsenal collection is very cool. I'm wondering what A.D. would stand for.

Either way, thank you. I'll pass that along to my friend that has the same tag on his.
The AD prefix means your rifle was once in the arsenal collection of Berlin Zeughaus (armory). Nearly all firearms in the armory museum were lost in 1945. Many of the firearms are said to now reside in the Polish Army Museum. Much of the collection also came to the US with returning vets.

The Berlin Zeughaus is now the Deutsches Historisches Museum. It is currently closed for renovation. You can contact them but they may want their rifle back. :eek:

Deutsches Historisches Museum | German Historical Museum (dhm.de)
 
@biggymu -- I got an answer to the receiver markings from my fellow Dreyse enthusiast Vincent (Spartaner545)-- I'll quote his note:

"Those are markings belonging to the "Kassler Fundus" or "kassel fund". Kassel is a city in hessia, germany where Kaiser Wilhelm II had its summer residence. In 1909 he had a new state theatre build in Kassel. As the Kaiser was both a big fan of theatre and showing off his military he regulary ordered state arsenals such as the Zeughaus Berlin to send (old) weapons to the kassel theatre so when he enjoyed the show, alone or with important state guests, the weapons on stage looked real and impressive.
All of the firearms (K3), edged weapons (K2) and other equiptment (K1) were stamped twice. Once with the K-marking and then with an inventory list (IL ...) marking. There is a lot more to this "Kassler Fundus story" but this is the short version. These markings are signs of the rifles journey. Serving with the jagers, then rebuild for the pioneers, send to the state arsenal in case they need the old needle rifles again and finally, by the kaisers order, finding their way into a theatre."


So of all things a state-owned theater that had real (obsolete) weapons as props. Wasn't expecting that.

Thank you @Spartaner545 for that wonderful information. I owe you a couple of beers when I'm in Germany. 🍻
 
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