1915 JP Sauer & Sohn 5222b

[chrisftk]

Hi All,

I've always been partial to JPS Gew98s, so when this one popped up I went for it. I have another 1915, but it's essentially a Bavarian depot rebuild, so I was hoping for a pureblood to round out my other matching JPS herd. I paid MSRP, but I don't regret it now that I have it in hand. 1915 Suhlers are generally scarce in anything close to matching.

I was happy to discover that the rifle is completely factory matching, excepting the cleaning rod (no big deal there). The cleaning rod was damaged and is missing the tip.

This example is exciting considering my 15 CGH and 15 VCS are also factory (but with matching rods) 1915 was the start-up year for the consortium, so some interesting things show up.

The bare/white metal had a shell of dried grease and mild rust on it, which fortunately melted away with a brass brush. Underneath was some nice looking metal. Not minty by any stretch, but nice and honest. The stock has crisp markings and a pleasing color. It looks as though there was a bolt protector installed at one point, based upon the stain on the wood. It seems to be a relatively common thing to see, as several other rifles have it.

The acceptance patterns fall nicely into place--the c/B Haenel bolt and receiver were par for the course, and the stock and final acceptance were cool early Sauer pattern. I missed the good pic of the barrel code and acceptance but did jot it down. No surprises.

In any case, not much more to say, so here is the data:

Receiver 5222b
Barrel 5222b (BJ 244- Suhl/Erfurt Proof)
Front Sight 22
Rear Sight Leaf: 22
Sight Slider 22
Ejector Box 22
Trigger Sear 22
Front Barrel Band 22
Rear Barrel Band 22
Trigger Guard 5222
Trigger Guard Screws 22, 22
Floor Plate 22
Follower 22
Stock 5222
Handguard 5222
Buttplate 5222 b
Bayonet Lug 22
Cleaning Rod: 09
Bolt body: 5222b
Safety: 22
Cocking Piece: 22
Bolt shroud: 22
Firing Pin: 22
Extractor 22

 

[chrisftk]

Remaining pics:

 

[biggymu]

That is a very nice example Chris. As you say matching and honest wear. Excellent!

 

[joryfreeburg]

Very nice example, with a sweet mellow look to it. Congrats Chris!

 

[chrisftk]

That is a very nice example Chris. As you say matching and honest wear. Excellent!

Very nice example, with a sweet mellow look to it. Congrats Chris!

Thanks guys, it was one I was happy to add.

I thought I'd add a few "before and after" shots to show the improvement a conservative cleaning did. I never use anything but brass or copper as an abrasive, but here you can really see how it removes the caked-on crud and oxidization, while leaving a nice looking patina.

If it's really thick, I'll use a flattened brass 8mm casing as a scraper. Otherwise a stiff 100% brass brush, pure copper scrubber or bronze wool are all fine. It will sometimes leave residue on the metal but it cleans off with oil and a lint free towel. No need to break out the emery/sand paper, buffing wheel or walnut shells.

 

[feldmütze]

Wow, great pickup Chris!

 

[Cyrano4747]

Thanks guys, it was one I was happy to add.

I thought I'd add a few "before and after" shots to show the improvement a conservative cleaning did. I never use anything but brass or copper as an abrasive, but here you can really see how it removes the caked-on crud and oxidization, while leaving a nice looking patina.

If it's really thick, I'll use a flattened brass 8mm casing as a scraper. Otherwise a stiff 100% brass brush, pure copper scrubber or bronze wool are all fine. It will sometimes leave residue on the metal but it cleans off with oil and a lint free towel. No need to break out the emery/sand paper, buffing wheel or walnut shells.
View attachment 354111View attachment 354112View attachment 354113

I love seeing a good, conservative cleaning/restoration technique like this. Great job.

 

[hale1940]

Fantastic clean up on a fantasic rifle. I really like this one.

 

[mauser1908]

This is an awesome rifle, Chris! You did a fantastic job on the clean up. Do you have a photo of the barrel acceptance, like you mentioned in the chat, the lack of S&S is interesting. Thinking more on it, first and second acceptance positions should tell us who made it. I wonder how it compares, although, there’s probably not a surplus of ‘15 JPS with original barrels.

 

[chrisftk]

Wow, great pickup Chris!

I love seeing a good, conservative cleaning/restoration technique like this. Great job.

Fantastic clean up on a fantasic rifle. I really like this one.

Thanks guys!

This is an awesome rifle, Chris! You did a fantastic job on the clean up. Do you have a photo of the barrel acceptance, like you mentioned in the chat, the lack of S&S is interesting. Thinking more on it, first and second acceptance positions should tell us who made it. I wonder how it compares, although, there’s probably not a surplus of ‘15 JPS with original barrels.

Thanks Sam, from looking at my other JPSes, it looks as though they didn't always mark their own barrels with S&S. All of mine with original barrels are BJ and no S&S. Makes sense in a way.

I missed barrel acceptance but it's the same as the rifle, all 3 c/Q,c/Q,c/Q and an Erfurt/Suhl firing proof. You can just barely see the acceptance in the photo with the underside of the receiver.

 

[OnlyMil]

Glad you were able to pick this one up Chris. So often auction house photos leave something to be desired. Your photos really go to show the benefit a simple and non-invasive cleaning. Goes a long way. The original photos almost made the rifle metal look refinished. Thanks for sharing, very cool

 

[chrisftk]

Glad you were able to pick this one up Chris. So often auction house photos leave something to be desired. Your photos really go to show the benefit a simple and non-invasive cleaning. Goes a long way. The original photos almost made the rifle metal look refinished. Thanks for sharing, very cool

Thanks Alex-- I think a lot of people mistake heavy patina for a re-blue-- it's benefited me on several occasions. haha

 

[joryfreeburg]

Thanks guys, it was one I was happy to add.

I thought I'd add a few "before and after" shots to show the improvement a conservative cleaning did. I never use anything but brass or copper as an abrasive, but here you can really see how it removes the caked-on crud and oxidization, while leaving a nice looking patina.

If it's really thick, I'll use a flattened brass 8mm casing as a scraper. Otherwise a stiff 100% brass brush, pure copper scrubber or bronze wool are all fine. It will sometimes leave residue on the metal but it cleans off with oil and a lint free towel. No need to break out the emery/sand paper, buffing wheel or walnut shells.
View attachment 354111View attachment 354112View attachment 354113

I learn something new on this sight almost everyday. Again……. Very fine work Chris!!!

 

[PrayingMantis]

This is a real stunner, Chris! Glad you got it. This exemplifies how i like to find them: untouched, in need of a little oil and not much else.

Acceptance wise this is very interesting. Sauer seems to be pretty consistent with with the c/N but all of the Sauer parts on this are c/T. I wonder if this was a short lived inspector, brought in from somewhere else when Sauer started production. We will have to keep an eye out for the stamp elsewhere.

 

[chrisftk]

This is a real stunner, Chris! Glad you got it. This exemplifies how i like to find them: untouched, in need of a little oil and not much else.

Acceptance wise this is very interesting. Sauer seems to be pretty consistent with with the c/N but all of the Sauer parts on this are c/T. I wonder if this was a short lived inspector, brought in from somewhere else when Sauer started production. We will have to keep an eye out for the stamp elsewhere.

Thanks Cyrus, nothing beats a closet find Gew98!

The acceptance was certainly interesting on this one-- I know we threw around a number of possibilities, but I'm thinking shuffling around of inspectors from Erfurt early on makes sense-- the Consortium was doing some odd things in 1915 as they were ramping up, as we've seen on some of the early Suhler rifles built off salvage receivers.

I think another sidebar is the conversation about the Sauer markings on barrels-- S&S (or the trademark as in one of yours) appears intermittently on JPS guns, while it is far more consistent on VCS and CGH production.

 

[Loewe]

Posted during my retreat earlier this year... wish it were a sabbatical but a strategic retreat is more apt.

Just to draw this wonderful rifle to the top of the sub-forum, I have to agree this is the best approach to cleaning such an original rifle with no special issues other than normal accumulation of time...

The start-up and how they assigned serial ranges, which increasing looks more mystifying with each new discovery.... it is clear that the collaborated closely, often specialization of certain components (JPS made most of the barrels for instance- CGH making many of the receivers, though Erfurt possibly in ranges???) - the only certainty is if Storz production number are anywhere near accurate they shared and or were assigned ranges.

1915's are pretty rare and this is possibly the finest 1915 known, -all 1915's are damn elusive, matching or original are hens teeth! Suhls generally aren't found minty anyway... this nice they are next to unheard of.



1915

1915 JPS 1118 C/B CF C/?
1915 CGH 2889

1915 JPS 1801 a – C/B C/N C/G (date uncertain)
1915 VCS 4485 a RR-NA
1915 VCS 4669 a C/B* C/Q x2
1915 CGH 8355 a C/B C/B C/B (BC- S&S BJ 32 C/Bx2 C/E)

1915 CGH 150 b
1915 JPS 2413 b
1915 VCS 4479 b C/B* C/Q x2 (BC- “box S” BJ 34 C/Q x2 C/F)
1915 VCS 5996 b – C/B* C/G x2 (BC- S&S BJ 75 C/Gx2 C/N)
1915 JPS 9208 b – C/B C/E C/N (BC- BJ 54 Efp / C/N C/N C/E)

1915 CGH 636 c – C/B C/B C/B (BC- S&S BJ 56 C/Bx2 / C/E)
1915 VCS 982 c – RR- n/a
1915 CGH 7665 c

1915 CGH 1036 d – C/B* C/B C/E (Erfurt style) (bolt C/B*)
1915 JPS 2131 d – RR- n/a
1915 JPS 3728 d – RR- n/a (FBR)
1915 CGH 8260 d

1915 CGH 137 e
1915 VCS 270 e – C/B C/Q x2 (BC- S&S BJ 75 C/Q x2 C/N)
1915 JPS 704 e – C/B C/N C/N (BI 220 Afp C/R x3 Amberg re-barrel))
1915 JPS 2704 e – C/B C/N C/N (BC- “box S” BJ 65 C/N x3)
1915 VCS 5278 e – C/B C/G C/G
1915 VCS 5996 e – C/B* C/G C/G (BC- S&S BJ 75 / Efp / C/F C/F C/N) (bolt- C/? Efp C/B?)
1915 VCS 6190 e – C/B C/Q C/Q
1915 JPS 7530 e – C/B* C/N C/N
1915 JPS 9714 e – C/B* C/N C/N

1915 JPS 1814 f – C/B* C/N C/N

 

[chrisftk]

@Loewe

Thanks Paul. I couldn't remember if we had discussed this one or not. It was at RIA, whom I generally don't bid much with unless it's something truly rare. They only post only cursory pics, so I was happy this one could be examined thoroughly and didn't go in the black hole.

The early Suhl production is very interesting and I'm assuming they had a good bit of help from Erfurt to get stood up; which could be the reason for the wonky acceptance on this. It could also be that different firms within the consortium got different degrees of assistance. My VCS (factory matching SN 892a built off a salvaged Spandau receiver) has pretty textbook acceptance by comparison, as well as my CGH (8355a -- c/B on virtually everything)

Either way, thank you for the insights as always and Happy New Year! Hopefully more of these pop to give us more data points and clear up some questions.

 

[Loewe]

Chris, I didn't have this rifle recorded, but as you know I have been AWOL the last year or more, at least more often than present! Erfurt seems to have had some role throughout, they had a supervisory role at least but in ranges supplied components (IMO based upon full trends- acceptance patterns)

As I am becoming an old fart, I plan on posting much of trends on the forum to make sure those that have the research inclination to use it, some I will save for confirmed buts like you, Cyrus, Sam and Chris as I know you guys are nuts enough to follow or pass the traits MW, John Wall and Ken Huddle passed to me!