1889 Erfurt Gew 88 #8219 (no suffix)

[chrisftk]

Hey all,

Here's one I got at SoS last year...I bought it based on the nice condition and some of the neat early Erfurt quirks it displayed-. I have a soft spot for 88s in general. (I know they are ugly @feldmütze , but I still love them ).

The five pointed star next to the SN was something that shows up on the early Erfurt-produced guns. The purpose isn't explicitly known from anything I've read, though there is speculation that it was some sort of internal use marking related to production. In addition, there is an unknown stock marking that looks to be *2* -- any thoughts on this? My thought would be some sort of early depot mark (I have seen other rifles with similar marks)

The rifle completely matches, though I can't verify the barrel as the shroud is very firmly seized. I've tried the hair dryer and strep wrench method and gave up from there. I've taken off probably a hundred of these shrouds and this is the first that has given me such grief.

The unit marking is to Infanterie-Regiment von Goeben (2. Rheinisches) Nr. 28

Not much more to say other than that.. here's the data:

Receiver- 8219
Barrel shroud: 8219
Barrel: unknown
Bolt Body: 8219
Bolt shroud: 19
Safety: 19
Cocking Piece: 19
Firing Pin: 19
Bolt Stop: 19
Bolt Head: 19
Mag spring: 19
Rear sight leaf: 19
Rear sight slider: 19
Front sight: 19
Stock: 8219
Front band: 19
Rear Band: 19
Trigger sear: 19
Triggerguard: 8219
Screws: 19, 19

 

[chrisftk]

More pics:

 

[Cyrano4747]

Man that's a looker. Really love the deep, crisp roll mark too. You can forget just how worn a lot of the receivers we're used to seeing are after god knows how many years of cleaning both in and out of service.

In addition to your thought about the potential for the *2* being an armorer's mark, I'm wondering if it could be a rack mark. This gun doesn't have the many signs of multiple rebuilds and different service histories (e.g. canceled out unit marks), and it obviously didn't get heavy use. I'm wondering if it stayed in that condition by getting shuffled off to some non-standard service pretty early on. Police I would expect some kind of mark of their own, but there are plenty of organizations that would have had use for a few rifles where that kind of in-house inventory control would make sense. Forestry service is where my mind goes initially, but I don't know enough about how they marked their guns to say whether or not they would have had more extensive markings like you see on police weapons. Just spitballing, obviously pure conjecture.

 

[PrayingMantis]

Had the pleasure of being there and seeing this one in person. It is nice, has been well cared for over the years. I added it to the reference!

 

[Cyrano4747]

Forestry service is where my mind goes initially, but I don't know enough about how they marked their guns to say whether or not they would have had more extensive markings like you see on police weapons. Just spitballing, obviously pure conjecture.

Huh, OK, not the Forestry Service. I just looked it up because I was idly curious how they marked their weapons before the 50s and it was a National Socialist innovation, codified in the big package of legislation they pushed through in 1935. I had no idea, I always assumed it was far older than that. It got a second lease on life in the 50s when the W. German supreme court ruled that the 1935 law wasn't inherently National Socialist in structure or ideology and re-instated it.

Gives those old Forsthaus Falkenau episodes a slightly different light.

 

[Sr4440]

very nice...very envious

 

[biggymu]

Ditto to all the above! Great rifle Chris.
Just noting the serial font on the barrel jacket and magazine housing is completely different then the receiver/bolt. Gorgeous receiver marking.

 

[Sr4440]

Since I got the Kar 88...greedy me...I want a Gew 91 and a Gew 88...

 

[AN-94]

Nice to see a nice, untouched Gewehr 88, congrats on scoring a beauty of a rifle and thanks for posting nice pictures of it! I swear, these seem to have one of the highest ratios of abused rifles compared to nice, intact rifles for Imperial German service rifles. Even the Gewehr 71s seem to survive in original condition at higher rates than the 88s do, from my limited observations.

 

[joryfreeburg]

Nice looking 88 Chris!…. Congrats

 

[Loewe]

I agree with the general sentiment, awesome 88! Added to the 88 trends study, wish there was some continuity so far, but the units are anything but consistent! A couple seem to group a little but they are the exception rather than the rule. 98a group better but still sporadic...

beautiful 88 in any case!

 

[Loewe]

Nice to see a nice, untouched Gewehr 88, congrats on scoring a beauty of a rifle and thanks for posting nice pictures of it! I swear, these seem to have one of the highest ratios of abused rifles compared to nice, intact rifles for Imperial German service rifles. Even the Gewehr 71s seem to survive in original condition at higher rates than the 88s do, from my limited observations.

nice 88's are rare, much like at a dog pound, a few pure breeds among hordes of mutts... but mutts often make better companions.

88's are more interesting than 71/84's, though I would have to ruminate whether they beat the coolness of 71's!

 

[chrisftk]

In addition to your thought about the potential for the *2* being an armorer's mark, I'm wondering if it could be a rack mark. This gun doesn't have the many signs of multiple rebuilds and different service histories (e.g. canceled out unit marks), and it obviously didn't get heavy use. I'm wondering if it stayed in that condition by getting shuffled off to some non-standard service pretty early on.

That's possible too, though there are a couple rework signs. I'm leaning toward the depot marking given a couple replaced parts. My Würt 1911 WMO has a big "E" in the same spot leading me to believe it was reworked by Erfurt. This one, a "2" would indicate Küstrin

Had the pleasure of being there and seeing this one in person. It is nice, has been well cared for over the years. I added it to the reference!

Thanks Cyrus. I appreciate you pushing me when we saw it.

Ditto to all the above! Great rifle Chris.
Just noting the serial font on the barrel jacket and magazine housing is completely different then the receiver/bolt. Gorgeous receiver marking.

Thanks Rick-- I'd agree the barrel shroud and triggerguard were depot replacement (the "2" especially is a different font on those parts.)

Since I got the Kar 88...greedy me...I want a Gew 91 and a Gew 88...

They can be super easy and cheap if you are ok with a turk 88/05 or a mixmaster. The more matching and original, the harder they are to find.

Nice to see a nice, untouched Gewehr 88, congrats on scoring a beauty of a rifle and thanks for posting nice pictures of it! I swear, these seem to have one of the highest ratios of abused rifles compared to nice, intact rifles for Imperial German service rifles. Even the Gewehr 71s seem to survive in original condition at higher rates than the 88s do, from my limited observations.

These did, contrary to what some say, see heavy frontline use in the early-mid years of WW1 as regiments were gradually armed with newer 98s. Honest bring back 88s are very enjoyable to hunt for. The 71s were more "in the rear with the gear" but saw limited action in the early days of WW1.

Nice looking 88 Chris!…. Congrats

Thanks Jory. Got to get you one of these now that you have a nice 71.

nice 88's are rare, much like at a dog pound, a few pure breeds among hordes of mutts... but mutts often make better companions.

88's are more interesting than 71/84's, though I would have to ruminate whether they beat the coolness of 71's!

Damn well said Paul!

71s are one of my big loves, though I like it all. Even the maligned 71/84. I've got a couple of them with WW1 depot work. They don't seem to show up often, so neat to see when they do.

 

[Sr4440]

Whee do you find all his great stuff?

 

[Sr4440]

Where

 

[Sr4440]

this

 

[Sr4440]

such a typist

 

[chrisftk]

such a typist

You can edit your posts rather than doing a new one if you mess up:

 

[mauser1908]

That’s a real screamer, Chris! You’ve had some luck with fine, Erfurt 88s. I’m also inclined to believe the 2 is representative of a Küstrin, I think we’ve all observed that buttplate marking wasn’t concrete nor the only method of depot certification. Many stock certified examples have surfaced in the past year or so. I think we’ve all observed many guns at this point that have been through depots but are essentially perfect, they were probably part of a mass turn in via a unit rotating off the line.

 

[chrisftk]

That’s a real screamer, Chris! You’ve had some luck with fine, Erfurt 88s. I’m also inclined to believe the 2 is representative of a Küstrin, I think we’ve all observed that buttplate marking wasn’t concrete nor the only method of depot certification. Many stock certified examples have surfaced in the past year or so. I think we’ve all observed many guns at this point that have been through depots but are essentially perfect, they were probably part of a mass turn in via a unit rotating off the line.

Thanks Sam-- I'd agree this was either a non-standard or short-lived method of marking... the two others that come to mind with stock depot indicators are the following:


1902 WMO with an "8" Ingolstadt and armorer initial on the left side of the stock.


1911 Wurt WMO with an "E" , assumed Erfurt.

Both are marked differently than the 88 in question, but shows that variance exists----which in and of itself can help show that oddballs are out there.