Steyr M.12 Zollwache - replaced slide

[AndyB]

I could write in german by problems. Anyway You should ask Rupert R. as he is expert on first republic, about the HV marking i have got information directly from him. Same he wrote already a extended article about the hidden depot weaponry with listing of various arms used in first austrian republic. I got this information from Heino H. a Steyr historian directly from Austria. When You look at last presented pistol in link, there is still a imperial eagle proof on grip strap sling. Anyway as mentioned there was only Bundeszeichen in many cases stamped instead of full HV crest and date stamp. Personally i dont believe there exist many unreworked arms from the period 1920-30 as majority were refurbished in early 30ies. Maybe You should go to HGM or discusse it with Moetz or Schuyi directly.
In the manowars page about austro-ugrian arms, there is still a Wn bundeszeichen 25 marked Roth M7, also the HV is date from 1926 as the Vorschrift was accepted december 1925.

Roth Steyr M1907 Pistol Austro-Hungarian Weapons

Austro-Hungarian Roth Steyr M1907 Pistol

www.hungariae.com

 

[AndyB]

To present the real stamps, here from member of Gunboard even on a Gasser M1870/74 a HV Bundeswappen 29 date. So the pieces exist, even not so present on internet. Firstly accepted 1882 on top of frame.

 

[Absolut]

Anyway You should ask Rupert R. as he is expert on first republic, about the HV marking i have got information directly from him.

Just called him. He absolutely confirmed what he has previously told me and what I‘ve stated already in this thread. According to him the HV stamp was only added when overhaul/repair, not when taken over into possession. Exactly what I had said and all others in this thread have said.

 

[AndyB]

Thanks for sharing todays opinion of the Rupert, anyway the manual speaks for marking of all items, but what was the real praxis to contrary of the army manual that is probably different, as i couldnt add here the pictures, so it would be probably not bad add 2 of the points inside of the " Vorschrift fur Kennzeichnung des Heeresgerätes durch einheitliche Abstempelung "
part nr.:3 ".Solche Materialsorten die ihrer geringer Groesse oder ihrer Beschaffenheit nach die Anbringung aller drei vorgenannten stempeln ( HV, Bundeswappen ,datenstempel) nicht zulassen, aber dennoch als Eigentum der Bundesheerverwaltung gekennzeichnet werden mussen, sind an entsprechender Stelle vor allem erst mit dem Bundeswappen zu versehen. Je nach Vorhandensein weiteren Raumes wird auch das Zeichen HV und die Jahreszahl angebracht."
part nr.4. Die Durchfuhrung der Stempelung an dem bereits fruher ubernommenen Geräte obliegt im allgemeinen den betreffenden Anstalten, an dem bei der Truppe befindlichen Zeugsgeräte den Materialverwaltungskomissionen ; ........ an dem bei den Wirtschaftskoerpern befindlichen Intendanz-, Kanzlei- und verschiedenen Material den Wirschaftstellen. Gleich den Ubernahmskommissionen sind die genannten Stellen fuer die gesicherte verwahrung der Stempel haftbar."
Also for me even not refurbished material already in property of Bundesheer which certainly my bayonet was, was the inventory stamp realised in short form wout the HV and date but with Bundeswappen.
About the praxis of Steyr M12 marking, i could been wrong as only refurbished piece are so stamped.

 

[HerrWolfsberg]

Just called him. He absolutely confirmed what he has previously told me and what I‘ve stated already in this thread. According to him the HV stamp was only added when overhaul/repair, not when taken over into possession. Exactly what I had said and all others in this thread have said.

There are Steyr M.34 SMGs with HV stamps from the year of their manufacture. These were probably not overhauled right after they were manufactured...
Given the firearms I've seen or am aware of, I stand in the middle between you and AndyB - the evidence suggests to me that while newly purchased items were marked with a HV stamp after they have been put into the inventory, the items already in the inventory (taken over from the k.u.k. forces, Volkswehr etc) were marked with a HV stamp only in case of them going through a higher level repair/conversion. That is the only option that makes sense to me in light of the firearms serving as an evidence.
It is also possible that all this had a very interwar Austrian reason - namely that there were no funds allocated for the purchase of the HV stamps for all the units, offices etc that should have had them according to the above mentioned instruction. But that is of course a pure speculation on my part.

 

[HerrWolfsberg]

Regarding the property marking of the Gendarmerie, Zollwache and Sicherheitswache, what is the consensus on them then?

- Z.W. should be postwar. Was there an interwar-era property marking of the Zollwache as well?
- LGK should be postwar. Was there an interwar-era property marking of the Gendarmerie?
- S.W. is known on Steyr M.34 pistols from the interwar era. Would the S.W. on Steyr M.12 pistols be interwar as well?

 

[Absolut]

SW is SicherheitsWache, that is Vienna Police. To my understanding this may even had been used around 1910.
LGK followed by the state IMHO is postwar, because they use the same font for this stamp even on post war made pistols, as well as documents proof that for example Police Forces of Tirol in the interwar period purchased Walther PP and PPK pistols, and there are none known from this period to carry the LGK T stamp (as well as having been told by retired Police Forces from Tirol that they had almost all kind of guns from WWII, but those were not marked).

There are Steyr M.34 SMGs with HV stamps from the year of their manufacture. These were probably not overhauled right after they were manufactured...

A rather little known usage of the HV stamp is also for property of Army Museums in specific barracks. I know this because the Austrian Army Museum got surprised by the HV stamp on German WWI stuff such as Gew98 and P.08 from WWI period when pulling a small museum that had been on display since 1920s in one barrack and those clearly were never put into service.

 

[HerrWolfsberg]

Alright, the SW is clear then.

Regarding the LGK, couldn't the font be given simply by using commercially available stamps? Had they been some sort of issue stamps, wouldn't it have made sense to use integral stamps, ie stamps with the whole text instead of single letter stamps? Regarding the Walther PP and PPK in Tirol, would they have been marked by the Landesgendarmeriekommando? They were a property of the Bundespolizei/Bundessischerheitswache, were they not?

Regarding the HV stamps on museum property, that makes sense - the items became Army property so the Army administration (Heeresverwaltung) stamped them accordingly. However, that has no bearing on the presence of the HV stamps on recently made items. Plus apart of weapons, the HV stamp is present on some pieces of equipment as well. In that case, it functions as an acceptance stamp.

 

[AndyB]

"-Z.W. should be postwar. Was there an interwar-era property marking of the Zollwache as well?
- LGK should be postwar. Was there an interwar-era property marking of the Gendarmerie?
- S.W. is known on Steyr M.34 pistols from the interwar era. Would the S.W. on Steyr M.12 pistols be interwar as well?"

SW was realised since 1869 and LGK are not only post WW2 they are too interwar marked period MP34,M95, LGK were already pre WW1 marked items on M90 carbines even in form of LGC.
About ZW i believe it was interwar too as the name to Zollwache changed already 1920.
How were used M12 by these is other point, but the Executive inventory list of used pistols from march 1938 speaks clearly that some of the numbers should be there.

 

[HerrWolfsberg]

"-Z.W. should be postwar. Was there an interwar-era property marking of the Zollwache as well?
- LGK should be postwar. Was there an interwar-era property marking of the Gendarmerie?
- S.W. is known on Steyr M.34 pistols from the interwar era. Would the S.W. on Steyr M.12 pistols be interwar as well?"

SW was realised since 1869 and LGK are not only post WW2 they are too interwar marked period MP34,M95, LGK were already pre WW1 marked items on M90 carbines even in form of LGC.
About ZW i believe it was interwar too as the name to Zollwache changed already 1920.
How were used M12 by these is other point, but the Executive inventory list of used pistols from march 1938 speaks clearly that some of the numbers should be there.

Strictly speaking, the fact that there are MP34 SMGs and M.95 rifles marked with LGK does not prove that the marking is interwar. These were in service also after the war. Whether the M.90 carbines were in service after the war, that is a different question...

Also, the fact that the Zollwache did exist under that name in the interwar period does not say anything about the Z.W. stamp. I am not aware of the Zollwache having been armed with the M.12 pistols in the interwar era, even though the photos are very hard to come by.

 

[AndyB]

Is probably not problem ask in the HGM or curators there, offcoarse Landes Gendarmerie used all the weapons interwar. It has been reported on real rifles and bayonets with no link to postwar, some of them are bringback of US soldiers directly from 1945 so not real these samples could be used postwar in second republic.
About Zollwache is this clear too as exist bayonets M95 in booklet of Guido Kapfer which are clearly early type of stamping,also interwar. About M12 using, it should be probably already mentioned by Moetz/Schuyi book or in other sources. Certainly not as each day service weapon but as extra stored unit equipment.
How do You explain a 9700 pcs of M12 Steyr pistole by Executive then in march 1938? When no one here accept using of M12 by Police/Gendarmery interwar?
There are various articles directly on Ministerium of Inneren, or on internet where the Alarmabteilungen were armed even with Schwarzlose MGs in 1928.
You could look or contact here at the museum of Zollwache.

https://www.bmi.gv.at/magazinfiles/2019/05_06/zollwache.pdf

 

[HerrWolfsberg]

There is a misunderstanding. I am not saying that these firearms were not in the inventory of Gendarmerie and the Police in the interwar period. They sure were. The question is only whether the markings on them are from that period too, or whether they come from the postwar period.

 

[AndyB]

So the contact to Zollwache museum could help, maybe he had done some research in archives of BMI. Same as the position of ZW stamp as here on front of grip frame could be determined in period, maybe interwar pieces were marked similar to SW and LGK or austrian army units on grip sling strap ring.

 

[HerrWolfsberg]

Here is the reply I received from Mr. Uransek of the Zollwachemuseum:

Dear Mr. Wolfsberg,

In my research, I have found the following:

In Section 54, Paragraph 2 of the 1928 Customs Guard Regulation, the armament of the customs guard is mentioned (including, among other things, the repeating pistol). In my opinion, this could only be the Steyr M 12. In the explanations to Section 54, Paragraph 3, Subsection 6, alongside the army revolver, two pistols are mentioned, including the Steyr with the break-action.

The Z.W. stamping must have existed in the interwar period as well (see bayonet photo), as it was no longer used after WWII.

I hope this has been of some help to you.

Sincerely,

Uransek Alfred

The following documents were attached.

Unfortunately, it leaves us with as many questions as before since the Steyr M.9/34 pistol stamped for Zoll Oberamt Wien does not carry the Z.W. stamp.

 

[Absolut]

He reads it wrongly. Document states „Armeerevolver, Kipplauf oder Steyrpistole Kal. 7,65“. This means kind of „Break Barrel or Steyr Pistol, however you want to name it, caliber 7,65mm. As a result to this M.1912 is not possible.

 

[HerrWolfsberg]

To return to the theme of the LGK markings, I just noticed this article on the website of the Military History Institute in Prague (VHU):

Steyr M /12 umg.

Pod uvedeným, odbornou literaturou nepoužívaným označením, se skrývá rakouská armádní pistole Steyr M. 1912, adaptovaná na německý náboj vz. 08 (Parabellum), dnes nejčastěji označovaný synonymy 9 mm Luger či 9 x 19 mm. Doplňková zkratka za modelovým označením je zkratkou slova „umgeänderte“ –...

www.vhu.cz

The last paragraph says:

"The specimen, manufactured in 1919, incorporated into the armament of the Lower Austrian gendarmerie, and later adapted to the German cartridge, was acquired by the museum in 1960 through a transfer from the Main Administration of Public Security (HS-VB) in Prague."

The pistol has the LGK-NÖ marking on the lanyard ring and unless it somehow found its way to Czechoslovakia between 1945-1960, the marking must be from the interwar-era.

 

[Absolut]

These pistols were already sold by then because they got replaced by the FN High Power pistols (which by the way were identically marked on the front of the frame). They were sold to whoever was interested in buying, mainly large wholesale companies in Germany and US. I see no reason as to put the LGK marking to the interwar period.

 

[HerrWolfsberg]

These pistols were already sold by then because they got replaced by the FN High Power pistols (which by the way were identically marked on the front of the frame). They were sold to whoever was interested in buying, mainly large wholesale companies in Germany and US. I see no reason as to put the LGK marking to the interwar period.

Is there a plausible scenario of the pistol getting to the communist Czechoslovakia in its probably most politically "orthodox" era? I cannot think of any save for some incident with an Austrian Gendarme somehow straying over the border. But even then the firearm would have been returned with him.

The markings on the High Powers are known to me. However, the Bundesheer has also been using the same unit markings as the imperial army before 1918 without somehow disproving them being pre-1918.

 

[AndyB]

This pistol of Prague museum was as mentioned marked to Gendarmerie in interwar period not postwar, as Gendarmery used not 9mm Para but 9mm Steyr even are marked Mpi34 SMG similar way. On right trigger its NPv marked for commerzial nitro proof in Wienna of 1932, as it should be by a police pistol, even it could be special units of Landes Gendarmerie and not normal Streifendienst. Changed to 9mm Para in DR period also post 1938. CSR used only pistols of Steyr M12 delivered in 1919/20 period. So possible it could be saled post 1945 or brought by some agents of CIC to sample in early communist period.

 

[HerrWolfsberg]

Andy, I am struggling again a bit with understanding your reply. However, the issue is not the calibre. The issue is that a pistol with this stamping somehow appeared in Prague in 1960. I see two possibilities:

a) the LGK-NÖ stamping was applied in the interwar period, the pistol has been brought to the former/later Czechoslovakia by German police and was captured there at the end of the war.

b) the LGK-NÖ stamping was applied after WW2 and the pistol later somehow got to the Czechoslovakia.

The option a) has no problems historically. Option b) requires some creative thinking.

It could have been brought over there by some Gendarme who strayed over the border. But wouldn't it have been returned with him?

It could have been brought there by someone who stole it from a Gendarme and went to the Czechoslovakia, but why?

It could have been sold to Czechoslovakia after the Gendarmerie got rearmed, but for what reason? The pistol was totally unattractive at that time and there must have been quite a lot of M.12 pistols in Czechoslovakia at that time.

Occam's razor seems to point toward the option a).