First time post, I'm in the process of purchasing a 1945 dot k98k mauser. I've been reading a lot of the post about this rifle here and online. Everyone says the same thing. 1944 are German and 1945 are Czech. Aren't all that are marked dou,dot,and swp? They were all manufactured buy the same companies, probably by the same people, and on the same tooling. Some of these k98k rifles were assembled with parts manufactured under German control. Just a management change.
1945 dot k98k question.
- Thread starter GM-mauser
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AndyB
Senior Member
Czech as designation of Zbrojovka Brno didnt exist only Czechoslovak, the used of other code in late 1944/45 means the dot 1945 or dou 1945 (with CS lion proofs) was used post may 1945 after liberation of plants in Czechoslovakia. the rifles were made for Czechoslovak Army or directly used post 1947 for export contracts. there was only small number few ten tousand of spare parts produced under germans supervision reused post may 1945.
Muncher 1953
Senior Member
welcome to the community!
looking forward to seeing photos of your rifle. you’ll need to shrink them down quite a bit to post to the forum, or post on imgur or = then post a link. it works best if the rifle isn’t oily & outdoors on an overcast day (not direct sunlight)
Circumstances among the two arms factories weren’t quite as you describe. Corporate ownership may have been the same before 1938-39, but Brno is in Czechia & Povazska Bystrica is 190km distant in Slovakia, a 3 hour trip today, longer in the ‘40s. These were separate countries at the time. People did not commute daily like that then as some do today. so connected, yes, making the same product under occupation yes, but dot & dou rifles aren’t exactly the same as you can see from the examples show in the Photo Reference here. dot didn’t make dou marked rifles & vice versa, though either may have reworked salvaged receivers with other factories’ markings. Brno was liberated on April 26, ‘45, much of Slovakia a month sooner, but in stages, as the soviets wanted to ‘pacify’ any areas involved in the Slovak rebellion against the Germans. (similar to what they did in Poland)
my apologies to @AndyB if I’ve mispelled or misdescribed any of the above.
AndyB
Senior Member
That would not mean that production changed from German to Czech on December 31 1944. Let face it Germany was in full retreat a year earlier.
Question where You came to this opinion? The Brno plant produced arms for Germans prior the liberating of april 1945, offcoarse they was changed a lot with removing of germans workers post may 1945 as many were killed and many were force moved to Germany,the production was strongly decreased as in first months of 1945 they still produced around 25000 rifles per month for Wehrmacht, so other point is that some of labor workers were too removed from plant, and offcoarse the soviets stole many of arms directly in plants, mainly in PB Slovakia. Major production of late march /april 1945 dou45 ended mostly captured by Soviets. After war was continued to production of rifles K98k and some MGs to made it for the new CS army, some modells were then quickly send as help to Israel, which is most typical to see on postwar dot 1945 production.
Question where You came to this opinion? The Brno plant produced arms for Germans prior the liberating of april 1945, offcoarse they was changed a lot with removing of germans workers post may 1945 as many were killed and many were force moved to Germany,the production was strongly decreased as in first months of 1945 they still produced around 25000 rifles per month for Wehrmacht, so other point is that some of labor workers were too removed from plant, and offcoarse the soviets stole many of arms directly in plants, mainly in PB Slovakia. Major production of late march /april 1945 dou45 ended mostly captured by Soviets. After war was continued to production of rifles K98k and some MGs to made it for the new CS army, some modells were then quickly send as help to Israel, which is most typical to see on postwar dot 1945 production.
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AndyB
Senior Member
Even the both plants were appart in 190km measured in today roads, in reality per train it was some distance shorter, personally i would believe the timeframe for delivery by today and 80 years ago is not really different, so about 4 hours by train, all these plants were part not only the 1,2 and 3 even some more of one concern of CS. Zbrojovka Brno or named in protektorat as Waffenwerke Brunn, the headquarter was moved to Prague, so the high management was far more distance. Both plants cooperate by realisation of various contracts, and Brno delivered to Pov.Bystrica a large number of parts as the capacity prior german rearmament program in 1942 in PB plant nr.II was only 10000 pcs in a month. Anyway in PB switched to K98k production much earlier as in Brno.
Thank you
Stalingrad was lost in February 1943, with the incircument of the 6th arm. From that point forward Germany never advanced for any significant gains.they retreated
Aren't all that are marked dou,dot,and swp? They were all manufactured buy the same companies, probably by the same people, and on the same tooling, sorry I see how this could be taken wrong now. All of this was done in Czechoslovakia by the Czech people. During and after the war. The quality would have stayed close to the same if it did not increase due to the Czech people manufacturing for the Czech people.
I can impart a theory I came about when writing the Czech sections “Kriegsmodell” in regards to dot 1945 receivers.
I believe the receivers were manufactured and marked dot 1945 in the last of 1944, in anticipation of the switch to 1945 production. To that point receivers were marked dot 1944. The swp code was introduced in Sept 44, and that code was adopted - the previous marked receivers were put into storage, where they would be used months later in Postwar assembly.
Few clues - this hadhappened already with Brünn - the code change from 945 to dot in G33/40 in 1941 - a significant number of 945 1941 marked receivers exist, and were put into the depot repair system, of which a number were used to build unnumbered (GI assembled) postwar g33/40’s.
Secondly, a small number of dot 1945 guns I observed had an e/63 inspection on the right receiver - a legitimate one, not humped guns.
So my theory is a batch were made and never used, to be assembled later after the war (barrel codes bear this postwar assembly out).
I believe the receivers were manufactured and marked dot 1945 in the last of 1944, in anticipation of the switch to 1945 production. To that point receivers were marked dot 1944. The swp code was introduced in Sept 44, and that code was adopted - the previous marked receivers were put into storage, where they would be used months later in Postwar assembly.
Few clues - this hadhappened already with Brünn - the code change from 945 to dot in G33/40 in 1941 - a significant number of 945 1941 marked receivers exist, and were put into the depot repair system, of which a number were used to build unnumbered (GI assembled) postwar g33/40’s.
Secondly, a small number of dot 1945 guns I observed had an e/63 inspection on the right receiver - a legitimate one, not humped guns.
So my theory is a batch were made and never used, to be assembled later after the war (barrel codes bear this postwar assembly out).
I work in a large scale manufacturing. I've also worked in the machining industry. If the factory produced 10,000 rifles a month. Components would be produced at a higher rate to fulfill quantities needed. My question is would they pre roll the dot and 194 on the receiver? Adding the final date number at final assembly. This would explain the movement of the number 5 up or down. German standards are higher and would have rejected these or corrected the issue during manufacturing. This could also explain the high amount of 1945 dot receivers.
AndyB
Senior Member
With 1943 Stalingrad lost has nothing to do with arm production in Germany and other countries, they produced still into february /march 1945 in high level, because the lost of material was imense. The major production was moved to countries as Protektorat as not so bombarded as area of 3R.
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AndyB
Senior Member
As mentioned You dont known a history of plants in Czechoslovakia, there was a german natives in Brno area about 20/25% workers were german, they were force moved after june 1945, the slovak plant was maintained by slovaks not czechs so similar simplification are in reality wrong.
AndyB
Senior Member
To some of the theories
"I believe the receivers were manufactured and marked dot 1945 in the last of 1944, in anticipation of the switch to 1945 production. To that point receivers were marked dot 1944. The swp code was introduced in Sept 44, and that code was adopted - the previous marked receivers were put into storage, where they would be used months later in Postwar assembly."
In reality this is wrong, firstly i dont known but there dont exist swp44 which would be corect in existence when in september 44 were assigned the swp code to Brno plant.
The receiver was a main part it was not made in large numbers for storage, maximum one month production in reserve. Putting a larger number of receiver in end of 1944 when the germany was intensively bombarded is other not real based opinion. All items were needed for arms production. Even older not accepted items in prewar or early war years were reused.!
"Few clues - this hadhappened already with Brünn - the code change from 945 to dot in G33/40 in 1941 - a significant number of 945 1941 marked receivers exist, and were put into the depot repair system, of which a number were used to build unnumbered (GI assembled) postwar g33/40’s."
In reality the production of second contract G33/40 was intertwined with the first contract (before the complete delivery) so the switch to dot code was realised in time of the second contract already run, and secondly there was large spare parts contract which confirm the receiver unserialed existed.
"Secondly, a small number of dot 1945 guns I observed had an e/63 inspection on the right receiver - a legitimate one, not humped guns."
In reality that are spare unmarked receivers that were made under germans (beside of swp.45) in late march /april 1945 and the dot 1945 was added by finishing for czechoslovak production. To this time i dont saw only german dot1945 marked full finished sample of Kar98k , they are allways marked with cs fireproofs, added with CS siderail, inside of CS serial numbering. There are too many reported that would explain only a spare parts production.
"I believe the receivers were manufactured and marked dot 1945 in the last of 1944, in anticipation of the switch to 1945 production. To that point receivers were marked dot 1944. The swp code was introduced in Sept 44, and that code was adopted - the previous marked receivers were put into storage, where they would be used months later in Postwar assembly."
In reality this is wrong, firstly i dont known but there dont exist swp44 which would be corect in existence when in september 44 were assigned the swp code to Brno plant.
The receiver was a main part it was not made in large numbers for storage, maximum one month production in reserve. Putting a larger number of receiver in end of 1944 when the germany was intensively bombarded is other not real based opinion. All items were needed for arms production. Even older not accepted items in prewar or early war years were reused.!
"Few clues - this hadhappened already with Brünn - the code change from 945 to dot in G33/40 in 1941 - a significant number of 945 1941 marked receivers exist, and were put into the depot repair system, of which a number were used to build unnumbered (GI assembled) postwar g33/40’s."
In reality the production of second contract G33/40 was intertwined with the first contract (before the complete delivery) so the switch to dot code was realised in time of the second contract already run, and secondly there was large spare parts contract which confirm the receiver unserialed existed.
"Secondly, a small number of dot 1945 guns I observed had an e/63 inspection on the right receiver - a legitimate one, not humped guns."
In reality that are spare unmarked receivers that were made under germans (beside of swp.45) in late march /april 1945 and the dot 1945 was added by finishing for czechoslovak production. To this time i dont saw only german dot1945 marked full finished sample of Kar98k , they are allways marked with cs fireproofs, added with CS siderail, inside of CS serial numbering. There are too many reported that would explain only a spare parts production.
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AndyB
Senior Member
To movable 5 digit on the dot 1945 stamp, more real is simple explanation, czechoslovak used a avialable older normal dot 1944 stamp and added there a movable digit 5 which caused the movement of last digit to base stamp 194. And dont forget that this marking swp 1945 / dot1945, dou 1945 could hidde the real production of the plant as it could be allways declared as for german production. a real production of arms was then harder to confirm, anyway majority of them got a czechoslovak inscription on siderail.
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