Soldering a turret mount onto a rifle?
- Thread starter ZF41 K98k
- Start date
tjg79
Senior Member
Also, there are silver solders that melt well below the temperatures that would affect the heat treatment of the Model 98 receiver. If you interview gunsmiths for this work, you should ask about these details.
To install these mounts properly, you will likely need a lathe or mill to ensure the bases have a perfect mechanical fit to the receiver. And then, the fit needs to be checked and adjusted with marking fluid. The areas on the receiver under the bases need the bluing removed as well as the base bottoms. The bases should be mounted with screws. Both the bases and the receiver should be pre-tinned with thin layer of silver solder using an appropriate flux. This will minimize the heat required to sweat the joint. The pre-tinned parts are installed with flux and heat is applied to sweat the joint. As the silver solder melts, the screws are tightened to minimize the clearance between the bases and the receiver. If it's done correctly, you will only see a very thin silver solder joint that doesn't protrude from under the bases. It will look like a factory job and have the strength of a factory job.
Regards
To install these mounts properly, you will likely need a lathe or mill to ensure the bases have a perfect mechanical fit to the receiver. And then, the fit needs to be checked and adjusted with marking fluid. The areas on the receiver under the bases need the bluing removed as well as the base bottoms. The bases should be mounted with screws. Both the bases and the receiver should be pre-tinned with thin layer of silver solder using an appropriate flux. This will minimize the heat required to sweat the joint. The pre-tinned parts are installed with flux and heat is applied to sweat the joint. As the silver solder melts, the screws are tightened to minimize the clearance between the bases and the receiver. If it's done correctly, you will only see a very thin silver solder joint that doesn't protrude from under the bases. It will look like a factory job and have the strength of a factory job.
Regards
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maxximmumm
The Weenis of Oz
you have basically repeated the bulk of the HOW- TO- DO- IT info that I provided including confirming the use of low-melting point solder is the best way to go in lieu of silver solder whenever doing soldering on a firearm, and this is what Kunhausen’s authoritative guide says and is in complete synch with what I said in that regard
why do you plagiarize nearly every bit of advice I posted but then again falsely accuse me of being a bubba?
and when soldering there is never any need to 'pre-load' solder onto each item to be joined - the rule is flux one and pre-load solder on other ..........
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why do you plagiarize nearly every bit of advice I posted but then again falsely accuse me of being a bubba?
and when soldering there is never any need to 'pre-load' solder onto each item to be joined - the rule is flux one and pre-load solder on other ..........
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tjg79
Senior Member
Bubba, cite your specific Kuhnhausen references and your pre-load rule. In addition to being delusional, I think you've got a reading disability.
I'm not confirming the use of lower melting point solder in lieu of silver solder. Low temp solder equates to low strength solder. Silver solder is available in a range of silver content with corresponding melting temperatures and is significantly stronger than low temp non-silver solder. There are uses for lower temp silver solder, but scope bases are not the application. I think moderate strength silver solder is the best choice for scope mounts, because of the higher strength than the lowest temp silver solder. Scope bases require more strength than front sights. Additionally, different parts of the rifle can tolerate different amounts of heat. I don't see where Kuhnhausen recommends low temp/low strength non-silver solder for scope mounts. I also don't see where Kuhnhausen or Howe recommend pre-tinning only one side of a sweat joint.
But, I do understand where you are coming from. That's what Bubbas do; they develop a bubbafied way of doing things to compensate for lack of knowledge and resources.
Regards
maxximmumm
The Weenis of Oz
you were asked in an earlier post to provide text of any publication in your possession disproving my comments about efficacy of soft solder etc - you have'nt done that
you subsequently plagiarised the essence of the info I posted
there is no point communicating with you further
I keep saying to you do it your way if you want - but its an unnecessary way - fixing bases to receiver can be done better and easier other ways, like I've described and there are probably other good ways too
I am keen you should do things your way because I can have a good chuckle about it
nothing you have said indicates you have ever made or even attached scope bases to a rifle whereas I have done all that many times
so having regard to all above, if I'm bubba then you must be bubba's pet monkey
you subsequently plagiarised the essence of the info I posted
there is no point communicating with you further
I keep saying to you do it your way if you want - but its an unnecessary way - fixing bases to receiver can be done better and easier other ways, like I've described and there are probably other good ways too
I am keen you should do things your way because I can have a good chuckle about it
nothing you have said indicates you have ever made or even attached scope bases to a rifle whereas I have done all that many times
so having regard to all above, if I'm bubba then you must be bubba's pet monkey
tjg79
Senior Member
Bubba, I didn't think you could find a specific Kuhnhausen citation for what you indicated was a Kuhnhausen recommended method. In fact, Kuhnhausen's Model 98 shop manual focuses on mounting optics bases with screws.
If you search the web, you'll find bubbas everywhere with a method of solution. For a family of solutions, one solution is optimal or rises to the status of best practice. I see a number of issues with your method that preclude it from being considered a best practice. Strength and reliability are two such issues.
Brownells sells a couple of silver bearing solders that melt at relatively low temperature when compared to other silver solders and offer a much stronger tensile strength. Incidentally, the printed instructions are in conflict with what you indicated as unnecessary.
When tinning both surfaces, you remove the uncertainty of a good sweat joint, and significantly reduce the amount of applied heat required for a successful sweat so there's no need to whack it with a hammer to test the joint. Brownells' instructions leave that test method out as well. But, I understand Bubbas like to whack.
From what I can see, all the credible gunsmithing references indicate silver solder, because low temp soft solder proves unreliable. In fact, one reference indicates soft solder is of little use in gunsmithing work. I think that adequately refutes your claims to a suitable method.
Again, your claims of plagiarism are delusional. I simply indicated what James V Howe suggests which differs significantly from what you indicated. Howe published his work in 1934 and passed away in 1969. If anything happened, it was you bubbafying a best practice. Also, check out my post #8 and 308nutt's post #2 in this thread. They were both posted well before you joined this thread peddling bubba methods. I think you tried to bubbatize what we indicated previously. You should work to improve your reading comprehension.
Also, I think you made a good decision to stop communicating on this matter, because I don't think you could find credible citations for your methods. They appear to be homebrew bubba methods.
Oh, and by the way, if there's any relationship between Bubba and his monkey, I'm sure it involves spanking.
Regards
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maxximmumm
The Weenis of Oz
after the series of grossly misinformed and gratuitously misleading comments posted by tjg79 in this thread I decided not to continue with a more complete explanation of how to properly solder scope mounts on a 98k as to do so would likely just generate more unnecessary and unhelpful comments from him
however, recently I’ve been casting around for ideas on a possible new claw mounts project and I’ve come across this site: http://www.clawmounts.com/services.htm
the information on this site should fill most of the remaining gaps in this thread and round out the general knowledge required by any novice contemplating starting such a project, and the bonus is the info is from an impeccable source
I recommend anyone contemplating a d.i.y project involving installation of repro period sniper scope mounts onto a 98k read the linked article – the information is equally applicable to all types of soldered mountings
few companies or individuals doing this type of work are usually gracious enough to take the trouble to inform and educate – (no names will be mentioned adversely but draw your own findings)
incidentally the links contents confirm the key aspects of my own “how- to- do it” (refer to my previous posts in this thread) even down to the exclusive use of lead solder, only applying the solder (techie term is ‘tinning’) to one of the pieces to be joined – they choose the top of the receiver, I find it easier to do the bottom of the base , its a 6 of one or half doz. of other choice, either will do– then bringing the base to the receiver to complete the joining
and they advocate the use of a mallet strike to the finished work to proof test it to be a safe and solid join - in my own ‘HOW TO DO IT’ I was scoffed at by the armchair experts when I suggested soft wood or similar lieu the mallet which I did only because many persons won’t have a rubber mallet – I do, but I only very rarely use it and just for mechanical projects like when you need to displace a stuck auto trans pan - I service my own vehicles none of which ever visit a stealership -lol
and the armchair expert said I was using ‘bubba methods’ and that no professional gunsmiths would apply such an ‘indoor test’ of the finished job – so who is the idiot now?!
seems this specialist company is also quite content to solder bases (sans screws) so I’m expecting that will deeply offend the aforementioned resident armchair expert cum prophet of doom on this forum, and all others wrongly predicting that a soldered join without screws will ALWAYS FAIL – [those persons can feel free to email claw mounts services quickly to warn them they are doing it all wrong –lol ]
imo the linked article provides a very safe informative starting point for anyone contemplating a repro scope mounting project which could save you huge $$$$$ if you do the work yourself
I said starting point because there are numerous minor procedural variations you could use with a bit of forethought and still get a proper outcome – eg I have found that in the unlikely case I do have a solder over-run the best way to remove it is very very carefully with a sharp wood chisel – held angled so the blade cannot ‘cut’ into the receiver metal and then finish off with emery cloth – usually it will clean-up real good that way so you don’t even need to use the emery cloth much, if at all – e.g. I would never use a file as the chance of me accidentally scratching the receiver metal with a file is much greater
btw if you actually did ‘tin’ both the base and receiver like the some ill-informed armchair experts have insisted must be done then you would be virtually GUARANTEED of a big solder over-run, and some other unnecessary problems, and that is something you definitely do not want
please do note in the manuf process of a 98k the screw holding the rear sight base was drilled and the depression into which the screw locks into made after the base had been soldered on/permanently installed on the barrel – and for a very good simple reason, the same one why you would NEVER attach a scope mounting base by simultaneously soldering and screwing down the mounting screws– that being if you do it that wrong way the screws will surely become soldered to the receiver (as the flux/solder is displaced into the area adjoining and into the screw holes) and thus incapable of later being unscrewed without shearing the screwheads off !!!
so why do so may persons get caught up on the silver solder bandwagon?????? and why is it so often used in run of the mill commercial gunsmithing work??????? – there is really only one major reason and that has all to do with the fact no-one now does bluing like it was done when 98k’s were being made (ie via the rust bluing process) for cost saving reasons –
in the interest of speed and greater profit that specialist process has been mostly abandoned for the much faster and cheaper HOT BLUING TECHNIQUE which uses chemicals that are potentially capable of dissolving traditional solders but less so with silver solders – it has virtually nothing to do with the relative strengths of soldered joins - all forms of solder are capable of a more than adequate, solid permanent join IF DONE RIGHT
to also drive home the fact that screws are not essential in all cases when attaching sniper repro bases to 98k receivers, consider the 98k single claw system which has no screws in the front base - only solder joins the front base to the receiver : screws really only serve the purpose of a back-up in the very unlikely event severe accident damage or mis-use results in looseness in the mount - they should never be soldered solid!!!!!!!!!!
____________________________________________________________
however, recently I’ve been casting around for ideas on a possible new claw mounts project and I’ve come across this site: http://www.clawmounts.com/services.htm
the information on this site should fill most of the remaining gaps in this thread and round out the general knowledge required by any novice contemplating starting such a project, and the bonus is the info is from an impeccable source
I recommend anyone contemplating a d.i.y project involving installation of repro period sniper scope mounts onto a 98k read the linked article – the information is equally applicable to all types of soldered mountings
few companies or individuals doing this type of work are usually gracious enough to take the trouble to inform and educate – (no names will be mentioned adversely but draw your own findings)
incidentally the links contents confirm the key aspects of my own “how- to- do it” (refer to my previous posts in this thread) even down to the exclusive use of lead solder, only applying the solder (techie term is ‘tinning’) to one of the pieces to be joined – they choose the top of the receiver, I find it easier to do the bottom of the base , its a 6 of one or half doz. of other choice, either will do– then bringing the base to the receiver to complete the joining
and they advocate the use of a mallet strike to the finished work to proof test it to be a safe and solid join - in my own ‘HOW TO DO IT’ I was scoffed at by the armchair experts when I suggested soft wood or similar lieu the mallet which I did only because many persons won’t have a rubber mallet – I do, but I only very rarely use it and just for mechanical projects like when you need to displace a stuck auto trans pan - I service my own vehicles none of which ever visit a stealership -lol
and the armchair expert said I was using ‘bubba methods’ and that no professional gunsmiths would apply such an ‘indoor test’ of the finished job – so who is the idiot now?!
seems this specialist company is also quite content to solder bases (sans screws) so I’m expecting that will deeply offend the aforementioned resident armchair expert cum prophet of doom on this forum, and all others wrongly predicting that a soldered join without screws will ALWAYS FAIL – [those persons can feel free to email claw mounts services quickly to warn them they are doing it all wrong –lol ]
imo the linked article provides a very safe informative starting point for anyone contemplating a repro scope mounting project which could save you huge $$$$$ if you do the work yourself
I said starting point because there are numerous minor procedural variations you could use with a bit of forethought and still get a proper outcome – eg I have found that in the unlikely case I do have a solder over-run the best way to remove it is very very carefully with a sharp wood chisel – held angled so the blade cannot ‘cut’ into the receiver metal and then finish off with emery cloth – usually it will clean-up real good that way so you don’t even need to use the emery cloth much, if at all – e.g. I would never use a file as the chance of me accidentally scratching the receiver metal with a file is much greater
btw if you actually did ‘tin’ both the base and receiver like the some ill-informed armchair experts have insisted must be done then you would be virtually GUARANTEED of a big solder over-run, and some other unnecessary problems, and that is something you definitely do not want
please do note in the manuf process of a 98k the screw holding the rear sight base was drilled and the depression into which the screw locks into made after the base had been soldered on/permanently installed on the barrel – and for a very good simple reason, the same one why you would NEVER attach a scope mounting base by simultaneously soldering and screwing down the mounting screws– that being if you do it that wrong way the screws will surely become soldered to the receiver (as the flux/solder is displaced into the area adjoining and into the screw holes) and thus incapable of later being unscrewed without shearing the screwheads off !!!
so why do so may persons get caught up on the silver solder bandwagon?????? and why is it so often used in run of the mill commercial gunsmithing work??????? – there is really only one major reason and that has all to do with the fact no-one now does bluing like it was done when 98k’s were being made (ie via the rust bluing process) for cost saving reasons –
in the interest of speed and greater profit that specialist process has been mostly abandoned for the much faster and cheaper HOT BLUING TECHNIQUE which uses chemicals that are potentially capable of dissolving traditional solders but less so with silver solders – it has virtually nothing to do with the relative strengths of soldered joins - all forms of solder are capable of a more than adequate, solid permanent join IF DONE RIGHT
to also drive home the fact that screws are not essential in all cases when attaching sniper repro bases to 98k receivers, consider the 98k single claw system which has no screws in the front base - only solder joins the front base to the receiver : screws really only serve the purpose of a back-up in the very unlikely event severe accident damage or mis-use results in looseness in the mount - they should never be soldered solid!!!!!!!!!!
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Hercules
Senior Member
Repro
Regardless of what you use it is still just a repro. Since it is just for your use you should do what satisfies you. I would think solder would hold up under constant recoil the best. Also, if you go to sell it solder looks more like a quality job. Best of luck with the project.
Brian
Regardless of what you use it is still just a repro. Since it is just for your use you should do what satisfies you. I would think solder would hold up under constant recoil the best. Also, if you go to sell it solder looks more like a quality job. Best of luck with the project.
Brian
If Your so inclined to use Solder , You want to use a Solder Paste on Bases as this is what was used by Germans . For the Rings a small Solder Wire . Off hand I am not sure of the exact Percentages of Tin & Lead in solder used Originally . But that info can be obtained if need be and or Vaughn99 a forum member maybe able to answer also . Good Luck on Project .
maxximmumm
The Weenis of Oz
Repro and DR
sorry guys my posts were just a sharing of knowledge and practical experience exercise………
maybe I should have been more clearer, while I have mounted scopes on my 98’s and know all the ins and outs of doing that , my current reference to a possible claw mount project has nothing to do with either a bolt action or a Mauser (of any kind) …I’m not even a repro fan …..actually don’t even like the 98k sniper mounting systems - imo they were obsolete even in the 30’s and the key players in the arms industry just kept building and selling that excessively complex , costly and inefficient stuff well past its use by date because they could and it was profitable to so
sorry guys my posts were just a sharing of knowledge and practical experience exercise………
maybe I should have been more clearer, while I have mounted scopes on my 98’s and know all the ins and outs of doing that , my current reference to a possible claw mount project has nothing to do with either a bolt action or a Mauser (of any kind) …I’m not even a repro fan …..actually don’t even like the 98k sniper mounting systems - imo they were obsolete even in the 30’s and the key players in the arms industry just kept building and selling that excessively complex , costly and inefficient stuff well past its use by date because they could and it was profitable to so