1900 Spandau Gew.98

I have trouble believing the unit markings shown in the OP are faked. The font sizes, serifs, and pattern all look legit to my eye. No clue as to how to interpret the marking, but for me it looks 100% Imperial German.

The flip side with the fraktur, that looks more suspect, but still believable.
 
I also saw this rifle on Liberty Tree collectors and I also thought it was from the East Asian Expeditionary Corps. A friend of mine believes the rifle is from Either 1st Prussian infantry regiment 2nd company, 55th issue weapon or maybe 1st Jaeger regiment 2nd company 55th weapon....or other. Beautiful rifle by the way.

At that time, Prussia neither had a 1st Infantry Regiment nor a 1st Jäger Regiment!
 
Sorry too hear about this I was hoping it was the real thing for Wolfsburg. The fakers are faking unit markings too something too keep your eyes open for. When it came too unit markings I thought the fakers would be only doing anything tied too the Stormtrooper units. Being anything marked for them would be high dollar. I still think its a nice rifle though and worth restoring.
 
If the disc in the OP is fake, I question every unit marked item in my collection.

I see period fonts, number dies in 3 sizes, proper regiment#/company#/waffen# as one would expect.

If the determination of fake is made based on the unit being incorrect or unidentifiable, I would chalk that to the incomplete collective knowledge of unit marking practices.

The disc in the OP is 100% real for me.
 

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The unit marking would fool me also, very few are versed enough to go off the cuff without a book and as Wolfgang noted, Carter's interpretations are hardly infallible (Craig Brown back in the 1970's-80's found cause to challenge some of Anthony Carter's assumptions, in a series of letters published in Kaiserzeit I believe, but could be some other publication...).

Authors are no different than any other specialist, most of the conclusions are clouded by prejudices and limited observations, also other people work, - this is especially true dealing with "history", where ideology plays a huge role.. today more than ever. Objectivity is almost impossible and it would almost be indispensable to inform/educate (even indoctrinate) all children with a healthy dose of suspicion when reading a "history" book or before they are introduced to any university program.

Anyway, the best way forward is to base assumptions on a wealth of observations that are reasonably agreed upon to be genuine, and in this case you are guilty of nothing because there is almost an absolute absence of known examples to base a judgement (or opinion). The only authentic examples are among bayonets and they are rare. It does make one wonder what became of all these rifles, that a relatively large number of bayonets have been observed would suggest that at least one or two rifles, or stocks, would have survived. Perhaps one is hidden away in some German collection? German collectors are a secretive lot, but assuming the research that has come out of postwar Germany is based upon actual observations, then there must be large collections somewhere in Europe.

Very good points and hopefully more will surface in time, if for nothing more than to provide points of comparison.

Hello Guys,

what an interesting discussion here. Sadly i cant give much new input mostly because i am not at my home and cant reach out to my literature or my 1.O.R. rifle and O.R. bayonets for more and better pictures. I am spending the holidays at my parents home and i don't travel with my books or collection :)

I will contact some german collectors regarding the unit markings and as soon as i have a response i will inform you guys.

My theory for why there are more bayonets surviving then rifles is that as a learning of the china expedition the german army would adopt a new bayonet. The S98 old pattern (1898-1902) was put out of service and replaced with the S98 new Pattern (1903-1914) because it was not strong enough to withstand real combat. So these bayonets were stored somewhere and not used. The rifles however were perfectly fine and after the expeditionary corps was home again the rifles continued service and are therefore much rarer then the bayonets. But again, thats just my theory.

With kind regards

Vincent aka Spartaner545

Thanks for chiming in Victor! I'd be very grateful to hear what you're able to find out!

Sorry too hear about this I was hoping it was the real thing for Wolfsburg. The fakers are faking unit markings too something too keep your eyes open for. When it came too unit markings I thought the fakers would be only doing anything tied too the Stormtrooper units. Being anything marked for them would be high dollar. I still think its a nice rifle though and worth restoring.

Yeah, I suppose nothing should surprise me though I'm not too distraught over it. My main interest in the rifle was the simple fact that it seemed to be substantially complete/matching and early. If the marking turned out to be real, that would certainly be a nice bonus! Haha! The markings were never a selling point made by LTC and if they're fake, they were presumably designed to be bait for someone that knew something about regimental markings, although they seemed to have provided us with an unknown/incorrect marking. I just took a gamble and it is what it is, whatever that may be! Que sera, sera...

If the disc in the OP is fake, I question every unit marked item in my collection.

I see period fonts, number dies in 3 sizes, proper regiment#/company#/waffen# as one would expect.

If the determination of fake is made based on the unit being incorrect or unidentifiable, I would chalk that to the incomplete collective knowledge of unit marking practices.

The disc in the OP is 100% real for me.

At most I thought perhaps the unit marking wasn't what I thought it might be (East Asian Expedition) but the notion that the markings were altogether fake didn't occur to me initially. Amberg doesn't like the markings themselves and I respect his input but for me the main thing that gives me heartburn is the simple fact that the disk is identically marked on both sides. Why would that be? If the markings are legit, logic would tell us a brand new Spandau rifle in 1900 would've been appropriately marked on the fraktur side of the disk and sent to China (or right after it got there?), with presumably little opportunity to be issued to another unit first before its journey. After it came back, it conceivably would've (or maybe not?) been dispersed and the East Asian disk markings cancelled and/or flipped and updated. Maybe my understanding of how and when unit markings are applied is incorrect though. The fraktur side is missing the dots/periods between each digit but the reverse side has these. Could that be the mistake, the reason the fraktur side was flipped? Could this have been done by a pedantic German armorer 117 years ago or by a pedantic huckster 17 years ago (though one not so pedantic as to get his fake rare unit marking right)? I'm not well versed enough to know.
 
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Wolfsburg,

can you measure the hight of the digits and numbers and give us the results? The 1 looks a bit too big for me but without the actual hight its very hard to tell.

With kind regards

Vincent
 
Yeah, Amberg mentioned that as well! Just eyeballing it in hand, I can’t say I noticed it but I’ll look again. I don’t have calipers or anything so I’m not sure I currently have any way to precisely measure it. I could look into purchasing some. I guess it wouldn’t be a bad thing to have handy!
 
Those who know me know I am reluctant to get involved with this kind of debate but I am a bit taken by the concern over this stock disc. It translates to 1st Ostasiatisches-Jnfanterie-Regiment, 2nd Kompagnie, 55th Gewehr. The fractur character for "I" and "J" were the same and this migrated into modern fonts. If the marking would have not had an "R" it would have been the 1st Ostasiatiches-Jaeger-Bataillon.

I have owned and seen examples of the "J" designating Jnfanterie. I even have documents where "Infanterie" is spelled "Jnfanterie" in print! This disc is 100% correct in my opinion. I have no explanation as to the reasons for the same marking on both sides? We will need a time machine to find that answer. One can speculate all day. Further, if I was going to fake a stock disc I would use a textbook example not something that is not "According to Official Regulations". I can not tell you the issues I had with some Regimental Marking "experts" over the originality of "non-standard" markings. Knowing Craig if he was suspicious of this marking disc he would have replaced the disc with another to avoid controversy. It would have bugged him incessantly.

Only my two cents. Hope this helps.

Jeff
 
...... It translates to 1st Ostasiatisches-Jnfanterie-Regiment, 2nd Kompagnie, 55th Gewehr. The fractur character for "I" and "J" were the same and this migrated into modern fonts. If the marking would have not had an "R" it would have been the 1st Ostasiatiches-Jaeger-Bataillon.

Sorry, but I have to disagree.

The letter "J" was not used for Infantry unit stamps during that period. (1890 - 1914)
There is no other weapon from the Ostasiatisches Infanterie Regiment known with the "J" stamp for Infantry.
The only known and correct stamp is "O.R."

There was no Ostasiatisches Jaeger Bataillon. Neither a 1st one, nor any other. They only had a single Jaeger company.

The size of the stamps looks incorrect.
The unit# should be smaller (3.1 mm) than unit abbreviation (4.2 mm)

If I remember right, the armorer who had to apply the unit stamps was extra paid for this job. With such a stamp he would not have been paid. ;-)

There are some unit stamps known, using the "J" for infantry. But these stamps are from (wartime) Reserve units and against any regulations.

Thanks
Wolfgang
 
Of course your assertions on the use of the "J" are documented? Here are some prewar lugers that do not comply:

* 1st issue 1908, s/n 1716; Regimental: J.R.150.R. (R lined-out) M.G.36.
* 1st issue 1908, s/n 9573a; Regimental: J.R.124
* DWM 1910, s/n 5145b; Regimental: J.R.72.10.5.
* DWM 1910, s/n 8184c; Regimental: J.R.141.MG.19.
* DWM 1912, s/n 7407; Regimental: Bay.21.J.R.12K.34.

There is no way to document when they were actually marked but they are not Reserve Regiments.

The Jaeger example was used to show the presence of the "R" had to be infantry.

Nevertheless, if you don't like the stamping or think the armor did a poor job and he shouldn't have been paid for it that is YOUR opinion. I personally have no problem with it.
 
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Well, I for one am glad Jeff Noll chimed in, - I can't take a knowledgeable position either way, because i haven't studied unit markings to the degree Jeff or Wolfgang have, but i am glad to see these two knowledgeable collectors contribute their thoughts. I also think having these two men disagree is healthy for our purposes here, - little is learned if experienced collectors are reluctant to put forth adversarial (friendly but oppositional, like two lawyers in a trial!) positions or views.

Anyway, at least this is good news for the owner, - now two experienced collectors have advocated for authentic, though for me personally I still have considerable doubts... I like "textbook" reasoning and generally have a strong suspicion of arguments based upon human nature (a foundation resting upon the tendency for humans to make mistakes). **Though Jeff seems to be arguing this is not an error, rather it is textbook for this time and place**

I do hope it is authentic, but the revelation of the underside (the original top surface) is difficult to explain imo.

*** by "textbook" reasoning, I mean in the sense that it is based upon known original examples, documents or a preponderance of supporting evidence.
 
I, of course, am grateful for the input here. Out of anyone that’s posted, I assuredly know the least about unit markings and very much appreciate the opinions put forth here. I’m certainly learning some things. It feels encouraging that someone of Mr. Noll’s stature likes the markings. I reached out to him and deeply appreciate him taking the time to offer his input. I will say that barring another so-marked example popping up, I get the feeling there likely won’t ever be an absolute consensus on this. What bothers me probably more than anything is the fact that the disk is identically marked on both sides. That certainly spooks me a bit. I would feel better if this has been seen before. As for the markings themselves in regards to format, sizes, etc, I simply don’t know. It seems more within the realm of possibility that there could be some measure of variation there or simply mistakes made. Perhaps the earliest ones were marked OJR and they later were marked in a more simplified way? Maybe the armorer indeed was sloppy and didn’t get paid that day? However, under what circumstance would he have marked both sides of the disk though? To hide a mistake rather than waste another disk? Purely conjecture and there’s no easy way to know.
 
imho, the armorer made an error on the original unit disk side (with acceptance mark) by omitting the "periods", & simply flipped it & correctly marked it. Nothing sinister here, just move along, lol
 
A very nice looking rifle Wolfsburg, congratulations, any early GEW 98 is tough to find. I was fortunate enough earlier this year to add an Imperial 83 ReichsRevolver to my collection with a pair of Ostasisatischen ExpeditionKorps markings (an xxx'd out Artillery and 2nd Infantry Regiment), it also came from Craig Brown's estate in one of the Amoskeag auctions. I did some additional research on the markings and history of the Korps and found a site that might be interesting in this discussion.

http://www.boxeraufstand.com/expeditionsteilnehmer/rangliste_landstreitkraefte.htm

The site has a Rangliste of German officers assigned to the ExpeditionKorps, as I understand it the Korps was drawn from volunteers all over Imperial Germany, the 2nd company of the 1st Infantry Regiment has an Oberleutenant from the 124th Regiment, same Regiment Jeff showed used the J.R. marking on a first issue Luger and interestingly there is also a Jager officer assigned to the 2nd company as well. May just be coincidence but thought it an interesting one.

I like the marking, wish the dup on the reverse made more sense??? You might post this over on the Luger Gunboards site under the Imperial Unit Marks section, there are a couple of guys there that have multiple marked pieces from the Ostasia Korps, maybe they have seen the marking elsewhere?

thanks, Nick
 
Thanks very much, Nick! That link is fascinating and something I had not run across before. Much appreciated! I think I will cross post this rifle on some other forums, as you mentioned and see what's said.
 
Of course your assertions on the use of the "J" are documented? Here are some prewar lugers that do not comply:

* 1st issue 1908, s/n 1716; Regimental: J.R.150.R. (R lined-out) M.G.36.
* 1st issue 1908, s/n 9573a; Regimental: J.R.124
* DWM 1910, s/n 5145b; Regimental: J.R.72.10.5.
* DWM 1910, s/n 8184c; Regimental: J.R.141.MG.19.
* DWM 1912, s/n 7407; Regimental: Bay.21.J.R.12K.34.

There is no way to document when they were actually marked but they are not Reserve Regiments.

The Jaeger example was used to show the presence of the "R" had to be infantry.

Nevertheless, if you don't like the stamping or think the armor did a poor job and he shouldn't have been paid for it that is YOUR opinion. I personally have no problem with it.

I've been following along on this discussion without sharing my thoughts, mostly because I have no experience with East Asian Expedition stuff. However, Jeff's input seals it for me.

BTW he still has copies of his book on Imperial marking for sale. Get it if you do not have it.
 
imho, the armorer made an error on the original unit disk side (with acceptance mark) by omitting the "periods", & simply flipped it & correctly marked it. Nothing sinister here, just move along, lol

This was my thought when I saw the reverse side. Too much schnapps or good German beer the night before!
 
You know that would make sense people do make mistakes. And it's not out of the ordinary for an armorer to make a mistake and just flip his error over. After all who's going to pry the stock disc off later.
 
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