1903 Spandau

[Loewe]

Trends on builds and salvages is asking for trouble, factory is subjective enough but that never stopped creation of a new fruitleß projeçt...

I just think Cyrus has an argument here. My first impession mirrored Cyrus but although i trend many variations i never have been so bold to traçk late war salvages. I found the 1915 builds challeging enough though Amberg would be a worthy addition as theyseem numerous enough... and more than a depot slap together late in the war. These deserve respect for there quality work...

 

[Loewe]

Seems I was burdened by insanity to start one afterall, seems like a folder with 4 were created at one point, one maybe relevant DWM/06 but source was not recorded, possibly this forum but pictures seem sourced November 2020. Some relevant shots of DWM/06 4205/a

***Gunbroker text (no RR or BC):

Rare ALL MATCHING dwm 1906 German Gewehr 98 W/Bayonet K98 K98K Luger P08​

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Here is an incredible piece of history! This rifle was made 8 years before WW1 even began, and somehow managed to survive all 4 years of intense combat! The patina on this rifle is unaltered. The new owner could certainly clean it up some if they so desired, but I love the look as it is!
All numbers but the cleaning rod on this rifle match, down to the action screws ! I did not remove the action as it does not look as if the screws have been turned in MANY years (if ever), and the serial number is quite clearly stamped on the underside of the stock anyhow. The handguard is a very rare crown stamped armorer's spare. As is much more common with WW1 bringbacks vs WW2, the firing pin was "snipped" at the tip.
An original German butcher blade bayonet is included with this rifle, and is dated 1916. The patina on the bayonet matches the rifle perfectly!
C&R or FFL required. Feel free to ask any questions!

 

[Loewe]

1905 DWM 5927 a EWB

(gunbroker 2010)

 

[Loewe]

1905 DWM 5000 d EWB

98k forum 12/31/12

 

[chrisftk]

Trends on builds and salvages is asking for trouble, factory is subjective enough but that never stopped creation of a new fruitleß projeçt...

I just think Cyrus has an argument here. My first impession mirrored Cyrus but although i trend many variations i never have been so bold to traçk late war salvages. I found the 1915 builds challeging enough though Amberg would be a worthy addition as theyseem numerous enough... and more than a depot slap together late in the war. These deserve respect for there quality work...

The wartime salvage builds are fascinating.

Not saying anything here that we don't already know, but I feel like it was an easy entrance into assembly like what we see on the very early Suhlers. It seems like some of the early Dresdens and Hannovers were salvage receiver builds as well.

Then there's the depots--I've got several from Danzig and a couple more that were ground-up Bavarian rebuilds. I think the Danzigs are well represented and easy to identify, but there's still a bit of mystery about the Bavarian ones. It's been very encouraging to see several lately that fit the bill. If they continue to turn up we can feel a little more confident about some of the conclusions that we have.

Thanks as always for the data, Paul!

 

[Loewe]

The 1915 salvages-builds have a lot to recommend to trending, being relatively numerous (many are bond rifles), clearly marked to Danzig or Suhl consortium and generally conform to patterns, -not that the Amberg builds do not, but they are less obvious and unless detailed in some detail (BC or matching bolt) can be hard, or difficult, to identify... that also extends to numeric fonts which as seen here can leave some things open to speculation.

I just think earlier are easier (and easier to quantify or assess for trends) , and if the number of G98 makers hadn't been lowered in 1918 to essentially WMO and Amberg (plus relatively trifling numbers from Suhl, Danzig, and Oberspree) these wouldn't be as easy to identify at all, plus if Germany was a mess in late 1918, Bavaria was doubly so, - these probably were done in large numbers and have only survived because Bavarian's refused to cooperate - Bavaria deserves more respect for its defiance after the war... the Entente were predator's and they laid the seeds of WWII with their arrogance (Wilson, Lloyd George and all the French leaders deserve the credit-responsibility for Hitler, the Bolsheviks and WW2...)

If someone, Cyrus etc.. wants to pursue a trends thread-study I will help, I found 2-3 others and probably could add half a dozen more, but I can't reserve the time for the 98b thread so no new projects for me, at least until I get my shiite together...

 

[chrisftk]

The 1915 salvages-builds have a lot to recommend to trending, being relatively numerous (many are bond rifles), clearly marked to Danzig or Suhl consortium and generally conform to patterns, -not that the Amberg builds do not, but they are less obvious and unless detailed in some detail (BC or matching bolt) can be hard, or difficult, to identify... that also extends to numeric fonts which as seen here can leave some things open to speculation.

I just think earlier are easier (and easier to quantify or assess for trends) , and if the number of G98 makers hadn't been lowered in 1918 to essentially WMO and Amberg (plus relatively trifling numbers from Suhl, Danzig, and Oberspree) these wouldn't be as easy to identify at all, plus if Germany was a mess in late 1918, Bavaria was doubly so, - these probably were done in large numbers and have only survived because Bavarian's refused to cooperate - Bavaria deserves more respect for its defiance after the war... the Entente were predator's and they laid the seeds of WWII with their arrogance (Wilson, Lloyd George and all the French leaders deserve the credit-responsibility for Hitler, the Bolsheviks and WW2...)

If someone, Cyrus etc.. wants to pursue a trends thread-study I will help, I found 2-3 others and probably could add half a dozen more, but I can't reserve the time for the 98b thread so no new projects for me, at least until I get my shiite together...

Much appreciated Paul-- One of Sam, Cyrus or I will start a tracking thread shortly; need to ponder how to best organize it. Any contribution on your part is appreciated- I know you have your hands full at present!

I'm thinking probably Suhl, Danzig, Amberg/Ingolstadt and maybe early Hannover (before they moved to using the "H" marked ordnance receivers), like this one :

Hannover Depot Build

Hi all, I bought this on GunBroker after discussing it a bit with another member (Sam) and am pretty happy with it. Based on the characteristics, this looks like it may be an early Hannover build from before they switched to new-made receivers---this made from a recycled 1906 Oberndorf...

www.k98kforum.com

 

[PrayingMantis]

We did start this project at one point, thanks to Marc. I still update this from time to time, but there are so many rebuilds that it gets disorienting and difficult to keep up with, except when it provokes an interesting discussion.

RESEARCH PROJECT - Imperial reworked 98 Rifles and Carbines

What I’d like to do is start a thread showing how various facilities reworked Imperial 98 rifles and carbines. I find theres not much out there on this topic. Like what are the traits of a Hannover rework vs Koblenz or say a factory rework. For example what does numbering look like in some of...

www.k98kforum.com

We can at least start dropping photos and descriptions here again, then periodically i can go and update the list.

 

[chrisftk]

We did start this project at one point, thanks to Marc. I still update this from time to time, but there are so many rebuilds that it gets disorienting and difficult to keep up with, except when it provokes an interesting discussion.

RESEARCH PROJECT - Imperial reworked 98 Rifles and Carbines

What I’d like to do is start a thread showing how various facilities reworked Imperial 98 rifles and carbines. I find theres not much out there on this topic. Like what are the traits of a Hannover rework vs Koblenz or say a factory rework. For example what does numbering look like in some of...

www.k98kforum.com

We can at least start dropping photos and descriptions here again, then periodically i can go and update the list.

Sounds like a plan

 

[Loewe]

We did start this project at one point, thanks to Marc. I still update this from time to time, but there are so many rebuilds that it gets disorienting and difficult to keep up with, except when it provokes an interesting discussion.

RESEARCH PROJECT - Imperial reworked 98 Rifles and Carbines

What I’d like to do is start a thread showing how various facilities reworked Imperial 98 rifles and carbines. I find theres not much out there on this topic. Like what are the traits of a Hannover rework vs Koblenz or say a factory rework. For example what does numbering look like in some of...

www.k98kforum.com

We can at least start dropping photos and descriptions here again, then periodically i can go and update the list.

I overlooked this project, I will add the other Amberg builds readily handy and putter around looking for more...

1915 JPS 704 e

 

[Loewe]

1916 Simson 3992 e

 

[Loewe]

Dr. Storz pg. 131​

However instructive these comments might be, important questions still remain open: we do not learn how the weapons inspected in Amberg were stamped. The numbering system of the arms repair shops at the artillery depots did not include the rifle factories. It is also unknown how private factories that were known to have been involved with maintenance work marked their products. The Samson factory in Berlin and Kirchner Arms Works in Zella St. Blasii or Gschwenda (later Union Waffen- und Munitionswerke) performed repair tasks. (28)

Repaired weapons whose components had been swapped were, on principle, to be stamped with the same numbers. But sometimes this was done laxly. It occurred that on newly inserted bolts the rifle number was stamped, but the incorrect individual bolt parts were left. An unclear stamp was frequent with hardened surfaces or worn out stamps, as the rifle factory in Amberg stated in Summer 1918: ‘it should be remarked here that the rifle factory used up 800 stamps in February for marking battlefield rifles. This heavy consumption compels the stamps to be used as much as possible.’ (5 August 1918 report) For collectors rifles repaired during their time of use should be no less interesting than factory new ones in mint condition. However, as it is very simple to make ‘battlefield rifles’ out of arbitrary assembled rifles and carbines, special care is necessary when inspecting such items.

The Bavarian rifle factory reached the highest monthly output of repaired M98 firearms at the very end of the war: for October 1918 it reported 8.540 repaired weapons. Over the course of the war they came to 228,038, i.e. 51% of the overall Bavarian repairs of about 445,000 M98 firearms or 24.6% of the overall Amberg supplies of 928,213 M98 rifles and carbines throughout the war. Of course the latter only derived from the repair workshop.

 

[Loewe]

Did a cursory look, lots on Amberg but relevant are scarce, as unless categorized when included these would be scattered pre-war to early war based upon the host mfg. Will try and keep this in mind!

 

[Loewe]

1917

604 – RR-NA
4420 – C/G C/O C/O
4758 – C/G C/O C/O (C/G TG)
8620 – C/G C/O C/O (C/G TG)
9191 – C/G C/O C/O (1A7-0) (BC- BJ 821 / Afp / C/R x3) (bolt- Afp / C/J)

714 a - C/G C/O C/O (BC- KR.369) (mix C/G & C/J, TG-FP C/G, bolt C/G)
2992 a – RR- n/a (3A7-0) (G) (BC – KR 374 C/O x3)
3772 a - C/G C/O C/O (mix C/G & C/J, TG-FP C/G)
4561 a – RRNA (rc-rebarrel)
4592 a - C/G C/O C/O
5800 a – RRNA (Storz)
5881 a – RRNA (CB owned)

535 b – C/G C/O C/O (5A7-0) (G)
576 b – C/G C/O C/O
6648 b – C/G C/O C/O (7A7-0) (G) (BC- KR.376 C/O x3)
8136 b – RR- n/a (8A7-0) (BC- KR. 370 C/O x3)
8172 b – C/G C/O C/O

1067 c – C/O C/O C/O
2102 c – C/O C/O C/O
2480 c – RR-n/a
3315 c – C/O C/O C/O (8A7-0) (G) (BC- KR 377 C/O x3)
6501 c – C/O C/O C/O
6698 c – C/O C/O C/O (bolt- C/G Afp C/G BS- K / 1B7)
8082 c – C/O C/O C/O

2294 d – RR- n/a
2797 d – RR- n/a
3198 d – C/G C/O C/O (G) (BC- BJ 266 C/O x3) (some part C/G)
5056 d – RR- n/a
7073 d – C/G C/O C/O
7598 d – C/G C/O C/O
8467 d – C/G C/O C/O (EWB) (G98M-re-barrel/Simson)
9038 d – C/G C/O C/O

547 e – RR-NA
578 e – C/G C/O C/O (BJ 274 C/Ox3) (bolt C/G) (TG-FP C/G)
1816 e – C/G C/O C/O (bolt C/G)
2449 e – C/? C/O C/O
4392 e – C/G C/O C/O
5054 e - C/G C/O C/O (some part C/G – TG-FP C/G)
5344 e – RR-NA (1C7-0)
5483 e – RR-NA
6085 e - C/G C/O C/O
6299 e – RR-NA (TG-FP C/G)

346 f – C/G C/O C/O (3C7-0) (G) (BC- BJ. 320 C/O x3) (bolt 8B7-0)
495 f – RR- n/a (BC- BJ. 335 / Afp / C/O x3) (EWB)
1823 f – RR- n/a
2067 f – RR- n/a (FBR) report
2626 f – RR- n/a (EWB)
7688 f – RR- n/a
8917 f – C/G C/O C/O (SCW)

1311 h - C/J C/O C/O
4267 h - C/J C/O C/O (2D7-0)
7670 h - RRNA (TG- C/G, FP-C/J)
8925 h - C/J C/O C/O
9943 h - C/J C/O C/O (TG-FP C/J)

5769 i – C/J C/O C/O
7649 i – RR- n/a (8D7-0) (G) (BC – BJ 256 C/O x3) (bolt - C/J-8D7-0)
8771 i - C/J C/O C/O

1893 k – RR- n/a
5080 k - C/J C/O C/O (some part C/O, C/J – TG C/J & C/R)
7678 k - C/J C/O C/O

6204 l - C/J C/O C/O (BO 524 C/Ox3)

468 m - C/J C/O C/O
520 m – RR- n/a
1352 m - C/J C/O C/O (OS 4450 C/O x3) (bolt C/J)
5765 m - C/J C/O (only two acceptance stamps)

540 n – RR- n/a (EWB)
1285 n – RR- n/a (Gef.A.Ambe)
1892 n – RR- n/a
2401 n – C/J C/O C/O (8F7-0) (BO 534 C/Ox3) (bolt C/J 5F7)
2441 n – C/J C/A C/O
6019 n - C/J C/O C/O (1G7-0) (bolt C/J 9F7)
6480 n - C/J C/O C/O (re-barrel)
7675 n - C/J C/O C/O
8192 n - RRNA

754 o - C/J C/O C/O (BC- BO 630 C/A x3)
2367 o - C/J C/O C/O
4208 o - C/J C/O C/O
4349 o - C/J C/O C/O
4375 o – RR-NA (re-barrel)
5091 o - C/J C/O C/O
5122 o - RRNA

103 p – RRNA (6G7-0) (some parts C/J, TG-FP C/J)
659 p – C/J C/A C/O (6H7-0) (BC- BO.51? C/O x3)
2362 p - C/J C/O C/O (many parts C/J FP bolt C/J)
2866 p - C/J C/O C/O (8G7-0) (BC- BO.742 C/O x3)
4641 p - C/J C/O C/O (1H7-0) (BC- BO.757 C/O x3)
4962 p - C/J C/O C/O
4993 p – RR- n/a
5057 p - C/J C/O C/O
6536 p – RR-n/a (8G7-0) (G)
6794 p - C/J C/O C/O
7401 p – RR- n/a
7959 p - C/J C/O C/O

9353 q - C/J C/A C/O

4962 r – RR- n/a (report-G98M)
5024 r – RR- n/a (EWB)
5255 r – C/J C/A C/O
5702 r – C/J C/A C/O (unclear)
6001 r – C/J C/O C/O (TG-FP C/J)
6428 r – C/J C/A C/O (9H7-0)
6566 r – C/J C/O C/O
7665 r – C/J C/A C/O
7723 r – C/J C/A C/O
7817 r – C/J C/A C/O (G) (1J7-0) (G98M-rebarrel) (EWB)
8962 r – C/J C/A C/O
9076 r – C/J C/A C/O (BO.277 C/A) (1J7-0)
9446 r – C/J C/A C/O (BO.501 C/A) (9H7-0) (1920-98k)
9817 r – (Amoskeag)

256 s – C/J C/A C/O
815 s – RR- n/a
1140 s – C/J C/A C/O (BO.228 C/A)
1417 s – C/J C/A C/O
2189 s – C/J C/A C/O
3926 s – C/J C/A C/O
4247 s – C/J C/A C/O
4626 s – C/J C/A C/O
4841 s – C/J C/A C/O
7647 s – C/J C/A C/O (RR Spandau qualifiers) (SCW)
9002 s – C/J C/A C/O (many parts C/J TG-FP bolt C/J)
9346 s – C/J C/A C/O

729 t – C/J C/A C/O (BC- BO. 8438 / C/Ax3) (G-5J7-0) (bolt-C/J Afp C/J) (G98M-qualifiers)
1289 t – RR- n/a
2417 t - C/J C/A C/O (bolt C/J)
2622 t - C/J C/A C/O
3510 t - C/J C/A C/O (bolt C/J)
4200 t - C/J C/A C/O (8J7-0) (G?)
7551 t - C/J C/A C/O
7588 t - C/J C/A C/O
7715 t – RR- n/a (8J7-0) (G) (BC- BO 744 C/A x3)
9796 t - C/J C/A C/O (2K7-0) (G) (BC BJ 877 C/Ax3)


8 u – RR- n/a (Amoskeag-G98M)
40 u – C/J C/A C/O (TG-FP C/J)
233 u – C/J C/A C/O (2K7-0)
4565 u – RR-n/a
4872 u – RR-n/a (G98M)
5468 u – C/J C/A C/O (bolt C/J Afp C/J) (TG-FP C/J)
5787 u – C/J C/A C/O (5K7-0)
6900 u – C/J C/A C/O
7509 u – C/J C/A C/O (G98M)
8762 u – C/J C/A C/O (5K7-0) (BO. 299 Afp C/A x3) (G.l.V)
9278 u – C/J C/A C/O/2
9960 u – RR-n/a (G.l.V)

6732 v – C/J C/A C/O (re-barrel)
6885 v – C/J C/A C/O (TG-FP C/J)
8400 v – RR- n/a (EWB) (HH)

1062 w - C/J C/A C/O (2L7-0) (G?)
2441 w - C/J C/A C/O (2L7-0)
4528 w - C/J C/A C/O (TG-FP C/J) (G.l.V)
6071 w - C/J C/A C/O (TG C/J) (BC-BO.505)
7808 w – C/J C/A C/O (6L7-0) (G?) (1920)
9783 w - C/J C/A C/O

1905 x – C/J C/A C/O
3475 x – C/J C/A C/O (G.l.V)
3829 x – C/J C/A C/O (BC- BO 913 C/A x3) (TG-FP C/F)
3925 x – C/J C/A C/O (TG-FP C/F)
4879 x – C/J C/A C/O (4L7-0) (G.l.V) (BC-BO.913)
5012 x – C/J C/A C/O (4L7-0) (BC-BO.617 C/A x3)
5330 x – C/J C/A C/O
8445 x – RR- n/a
9167 x – C/J C/A C/O

1958 y – C/J C/A C/O
2214 y – C/J C/A C/O


1918

28 – RRNA (Upgraded)(Blued)
652 – C/J C/A C/O
738 – C/J (4B8-0) (Upgraded)(Blued) (postwar build)
2712 – C/J C/A C/O (BC- BO 26 C/A x3) (Upgraded)(Blued)
2782 – C/J C/A C/O (9L7-0) (bright)
3138 – C/J C/A C/O (U)(B
3681 – C/J C/A C/O (6M7-0?) (G) (BC- BO 26 C/A x3)
4526 – C/J C/A C/O
6507 – C/J C/A C/O (7M7-0) (G) (BC- OS 4557 C/Ax3) (bright)
7383 – RR- n/a (Blued-Lange)
8292 – C/J C/A C/O (2A8-0) (G)
9747 – C/J C/A C/O (G)
9892 – C/J C/A C/O

10 a – C/J C/A C/O
1237 a – C/J C/A C/O
3553 a – C/J C/A C/O (4A8-0) (G) (BC- BO 71 C/A x3) (bolt C/F)
5538 a – C/J C/A C/O
7342 a – C/J C/A C/O (BC- BO. 121 C/A x3) (bolt C/F)
7429 a – (C/J C/A C/O) (BC- BO. 864 C/A x3) (Robert Jensen datasheet)
9604 a – C/J C/A C/O

2740 b – C/J C/A C/O (1920) (Spandau qualifiers)
2837 b – C/J C/A C/O
5536 b – C/J C/A C/O
8438 b – C/J C/A C/O (1M7-0) (G)

1395 c – C/J C/A C/O (TG-FP & bolt C/F)
5330 c – C/J C/A C/O
6523 c – C/J C/A C/O
7278 c – C/J C/A C/O 3M7
8279 c – C/J C/A C/O (BC- BO 148 C/A x3)

382 d – C/J C/A C/O (some part C/J)
1955 d – C/J C/A C/O (TG C/J)
2459 d – C/J C/A C/O 3D8-0
3076 d – C/J C/A C/O 4D8 (bolt C/F 1C8) (BC-BO 80 C/A x3) (TF-FP C/F)
6339 d – RR- n/a (G) (BC- BI 972 C/A x3)
7457 d – C/J C/A C/O 6D8-0 (bolt 4D8) (BC-BO 137 C/A)
9495 d – C/J C/A C/O (EWB)

3108 e – RR-n/a
4663 e – C/J C/A C/O 4E8-0 (BC-BO 176 C/A x3) (bolt C/J / C/J - 1E8) (EWB)
5220 e - C/J C/A C/O (TG C/J)
5293 e – C/J C/A C/O (bolt C/J / C/J(bolt 9D8)
5582 e - C/J C/A C/O
6962 e - C/J C/A C/O
9042 e - C/J C/A C/O (G) (BC- DS 4548 C/A x3)
9240 e – RR- n/a (7E8-0)

1622 f – C/ J C/A C/O
1735 f - C/J C/A C/O (1*8-0)
4533 f – C/J C/A C/O (4A8-0) (G)
6702 f – C/J C/A C/O?
7765 f – RR- n/a
8236 f - C/J C/A(S) C/O

550 g - C/J C/O C/O
1641 g - C/J C/O C/O
2115 g - C/J C/O C/O
2199 g – RR- n/a 2H8-0 (bolt 5G8)
2549 g - C/J C/O C/O (TG-FP C/O)
4557 g - C/O C/O C/O (BC- BI 952 C/O x3) (TG & FB C/O, FP C/F)
4751 g - C/J C/O C/O (7A8-0)
5920 g – RR- n/a
6404 g - C/O C/O C/O (3J8-0) (G) (BC- G 23 C/O x3) (bolt C/F)
9554 g - C/O C/O C/O (5J8-0) (G) (BC- G 10 C/O x3)
9613 g - C/O C/O C/O (G)

355 h - C/O C/O C/O
1052 h – C/J C/O C/O

(F)= Fraktur script (Z looks like “3”)
(R)= Roman-Latin Upper Case Character, not script letter
C/G = Crown / G
C/J = Crown / J or I
C/O = Crown / O style character, variations exist

*= C/RC
U=upgraded/postwar
B=Blued

 

[Loewe]

I thought trends for 1917-1918 could be helpful here, - using BC & acceptance patterns to guide (extrapolate) reworks dates or periods (where a rework might fit, if that is determined they correlate to factory production...) - this is a trend sheet and doesn't include all in the database, but I figured it can serve as a foundation to build upon and less now is better than promising more later... who knows if I will ever flesh out trend sheets to represent the whole of what is collected

 

[joryfreeburg]

Good informative tread here….. you guys are really something