1944 Izhevsk M91/30

[shmlnaaa]

Here's my most recent acquisition in the original matching Soviet rifle department. 1943 Izhevsk dates in this condition seem to be not all that rare, but there don't seem to be many from the other wartime dates (and I have seen none from Tula yet nor any from 1941).

This rifle was just recently found by the person I purchased it from in a big box store along with refurbished M91/30's. Note the big ugly import stamp; the bayonet is also not matching (I assume accessories were mixed by the importer when repackaging the rifles).

 

[RyanE]

Very nice! I still need an "original" 44 with the original factory matched bayonet, but I just can't live with these new ugly import marks.

By 1944, the Soviets had produced mountains of 91/30 (Factory No.74 produced 1.2 million rifles in the first six months of 1943 alone), and it was slowly being replaced by the PPSh/PPS anyway. I suspect a non-trivial percentage of 1943/44 production never left their original packing crates. They just didn't need them, thus the reason you see relatively so many in this sort of condition, the '43 especially. Earlier wartime dated rifles were likely chewed up at the front in 1941/1942 when the rifle situation was much, much worse.

"Tula" (not really same "Tula" that produced 91/30 prior to 1941 or continued producing SVT/AVT 1941-1945) seems to have only produced sniper 91/30 for most of the 1942-1944 period. Their wartime production was quite low compared to the massive output of Izhevsk, so the only "original" rifles you see are the 43/44 PU snipers.

 

[shmlnaaa]

I hate the import mark too, but I guess i'll have to live with it until I find a Coles import like my 1943 is. I'd also really like a 1942 dated example, but I know of only one of those! For now, I think I'll just have to live with what i have as far as wartime Soviet M91/30's go.

I'm pretty sure that there are some wartime "Tula" produced M91/30's as indicated by the refurbs, but they seem to be much less common (not rare for refurbs, but definitely less common enough that I'm not surprised we don't see any original matching infantry rifle ones, especially considering the ratio of non-1943 dated Izhevsks to 1943 dated examples we see).

 

[Kammerjaeger]

I love Nagants. Wait...did I say that? In the heirarchy of rarity, (10 being most rare and 1 being most common) a round receiver 1944 Izhevsk rates a 1. This correlates with Ryans post. Here is an informative link for Mosin-Nagant.

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinRarity.htm

KJ

 

[shmlnaaa]

Yes, common in the usual post-WWII refurbished configuration, but not so much like this. Other than the import mark (and possibly the shellac too), this rifle is as it left the factory in 1944. Note how all of the serial numbers were done with the exact same dies, how the serial numbers were stamped through the finish, and how the finish is a thin dip-blue and that there is no blued over pitting or wear. There are some other tell-tale details too, but they aren't quite as obvious in the pictures. In the hierarchy of Mosins, this is quite a rare piece, and IMHO, much more worthy of being a representative piece in a WWII rifle collection than a completely refurbished 1944 Izhevsk.

 

[Kammerjaeger]

Actually, the table makes no provision for condition. It is based on numbers produced.

KJ

 

[shmlnaaa]

True, the table is only really useful for people who essentially are just code collectors of Mosins. That rarity scale is only one guy's opinion from a while ago how easy certain things are to find on the US market. Not all that reliable.

Here's the production numbers of the rifles (scroll down a bit): http://www.mosinnagant.net/ussr/soviet-m9130.asp ...a bit more useful when not just talking about the common refurbs.

 

[RyanE]

Actually, the table makes no provision for condition. It is based on numbers produced.

KJ

I wouldn't put too much faith in the various Mosin websites. While useful for the basics, they aren't much help for anything beyond that and often outdated or just wrong.

Rifles in original condition (minus the shellac) like this one are not at all common, although more and more of these imported examples, most from 1943, have been showing up lately. Vet bringbacks are almost impossible to find.

True, the table is only really useful for people who essentially are just code collectors of Mosins. That rarity scale is only one guy's opinion from a while ago how easy certain things are to find on the US market. Not all that reliable.

Here's the production numbers of the rifles (scroll down a bit): http://www.mosinnagant.net/ussr/soviet-m9130.asp ...a bit more useful when not just talking about the common refurbs.

This page illustrates my point above. The 91/30 production numbers listed show at total 1941 production of 982,211 rifles at Tula (Factory No.314). Actual number of 91/30 produced at Tula in 1941: 0! So they are only off by 982,211.

I don't know where Wrobel got his numbers, but none of them can be trusted.

 

[Kammerjaeger]

All good reading. Thanks for the link.

KJ

 

[shmlnaaa]

I wouldn't put to much faith the various Mosin websites. While useful for the basics, they aren't much help for anything beyond that and often outdated or just wrong.

Rifles in original condition (minus the shellac) like this one are not at all common, although more and more of these imported examples, most from 1943, have been showing up lately. Vet bringbacks are almost impossible to find.



This page illustrates my point above. The 91/30 production numbers listed show at total 1941 production of 982,211 rifles at Tula (Factory No.314). Actual number of 91/30 produced at Tula in 1941: 0! So they are only off by 982,211.

I don't know where Wrobel got his numbers, but none of them can be trusted.

I noticed that. The others seem to be more in line with how often I see things show up, sort of. But, "Tula" definitely did produce infantry rifles through at least 1943 (after starting in 1942) for example and I'm sure there are several other errors.

A serial number survey of pre-1938 rifles could be quite useful because the serial numbers are merely sequential and numeric, but are the Cyrillic prefixes they began using in 1938 and onward sequential? I have heard that they were not, but that may be BS.

 

[RyanE]

A serial number survey of pre-1938 rifles could be quite useful because the serial numbers are merely sequential and numeric, but are the Cyrillic prefixes they began using in 1938 and onward sequential? I have heard that they were not, but that may be BS.

Yes, more or less. A blocks are very early, Ф blocks tend to be late. Exactly how the letter block system worked is a bit unclear though.

 

[shmlnaaa]

Yes, more or less. A blocks are very early, Ф blocks tend to be late. Exactly how the letter block system worked is a bit unclear though.

If the production numbers are as high as they are claimed to be (and I'm pretty sure that they are at least int he ballpark), then it may be difficult to unravel without some documentation.