1st GEW88 Potential - Lowe 1890

[BergerBoy]

Hi folks.
Saw an 88 that I may go back for at a LGS.
It's a Lowe from 1890 that looked to be in good shape for price and age.
The only Turk symbols I saw were on the bolt. Everything else looked to be imperial and matching.
Is this typical? Turk bolt without turk markings on receiver or elsewhere?
What else to look for?
This board has helped me immensely with my k98 and gew98 so I'm hopeful for same with this possible addition to the German collection.
Just sitting here in my deer Blind thinking about going back into town to snatch it up.
Thoughts?

 

[iron bender]

I don't think this is unusual. One of my g88's has a matched turk bolt and the rear sight has been machined and remarked, but all three pieces still match the rifle. No Turk marks anywhere else and it's not import marked.

 

[BergerBoy]

Thanks.
Seems plausible, similar to the Mausers which also had re movable bolts, that they'd get lost or mismatched during group cleanings in the field.
Wondering if it would be worthwhile or acceptable to get an other bolt that was not turk'd and replace it?
Also interested in the Lowe history that I'm reading, and their challenges with anti semitism so many years prior to the 3rd Reich, yet being under contract to manufacture weapons for the Germans towards that very end over the 50 years that followed.

 

[Loewe]

The Loewe/1890 with only a bolt Turkish marked could be any number of possibilities, - did the bolt match the receiver? I suspect not, so there is no reason to connect the bolt to the rifle, it could easily have been a more recent addition.

If all else matches, and it is in good condition, as in not abused or mismatched, then it is probably a worthwhile rifle. Nice Loewe's are not common, so if a good price, you might be better off going to pick it up (and not freezing your tail off in a blind...).

As to antisemitism, Germany was probably one of the more tolerant societies in the late 19th century... the French were worse, the English were little better (their anti-immigration laws late in the 19th Century were directed at Russian Jews); even in America Jews were hardly better off... If you read 19th century conservative journals and magazines, both in England and America, you might easily think you are reading something one of Hitler's stooges wrote. Some are quite shocking, the English "Patriot" journals, which began right after WWI, are shockingly antisemitism, but quite right and well written otherwise.

In Germany Jews faced challenges, but in Germany Jews could be successful, probably as good a chance as anywhere in the western world. For instance, Ludwig Loewe was also a successful politician, - among his and his brothers other achievements.

 

[BergerBoy]

Hi again.
I picked up that Loewe GEW88 today during a lull in the hunting.
I took some pix just from the store while my paperwork got processed but they're too large to post.
I'll figure that I out later.
Only Turk symbols are on the bolt.
[Later edit: I did notice that the sight distance graduations are what appear to be turkish symbols which is odd since the ladder sight body and base are both serial number matching to the rifle]
Everything else visible matches down the the screws.
Gotta admire those Germans for their fastidiousness.
Curious x-outs under the unit marking.
Any idea why they meant?
Looks like ATA......?
Anyway. Will try to head space it and check out muzzle wear when I get home.
What are some of the things to look for upon disassembly?

 

[BergerBoy]

Pictures

See the one photo of the barrel band with the Regiment markings and the X'd-out markings (looks like "A.T.A....."), any clue what that might have been.
I did cycle a full 5-round stripper clip though the action, and its as smooth as silk: feeds, extracts, and ejects like a new (but broken-in) weapon!
I'm anxious to dis-assemble and clear her out, but time won't allow that for the next few days.
Also, my M1871 bayonet with brass handle fits right on the 88 like a glove!

On a related note, I won't be taking any time to clean and butcher my deer - since I was totally shut-out after 3 days hunting!
At least it was not miserable out: sunny and 60's all 3 days, which is probably why the deer were no-shows!

 

[BergerBoy]

A few more Pix

I noticed that the rear sight leaf, which was re-marked with Farsi symbols, looks like it actually had machined down trenches to erase the original distance markings, and over-write the Farsi.
Also, what is the symbol on the upgrade-added floor-plate piece?

 

[Loewe]

A.T.A is listed in Jeff Noll's book as Army telegraph detachment, - I do not know for sure if this is right for this marking though... I once owned a 98a marked to a telegraph detachment, it was T.A.XVII.69.

The magazine well cap has a logo of a toy maker, Ernst Paul Lehmann, Nürnberg (Bavaria), they along with Gebruder Bing (G.B.N.), also a toy maker in Nürnberg, made these magazine covers.

Rifle probably was Turk used, but looks better than most, - nothing wrong with Turk used rifles if there is no abuse or poor storage... the Turks used them up is the main problem. Much the same with so-called "rc" 98k's, had the Bolo's simply used them and stored them, they would be worth something, but they turned them into junk refinishing and thoroughly mismatching them. This Turk looks worthwhile... have you seen if the stock matched?

 

[met]

Next time you go deer hunting don't rule out the Gew88

 

[BergerBoy]

Nice Doe Met! Did you use 8mm hollow points?
In Michigan, we can only hunt with high power rifles in the northern half of the state. Down here in the southern half of the Mitten, they only allow shotguns (rifled slugs or sabots).
What's going on with the top of her head? Or is that just something on the ground?

I was able to disassemble the GEW88 last night (the trigger assembly screws were a real bear to get out!).
The stock is numbers matching to the receiver, etc.
Also, I unscrewed the barrel from its jacket to reveal the barrel itself, and it looks pristine.
I was expecting some rust and gunk, given the history of that design and the internal corrosion problem being the reason they abandoned the sleeve again.
What's the best method to clean and protect this area for when I put her back together again? Remoil? Hoppes cleaning and coating only? other?
Many interesting markings on the barrel itself, which I'll get photos of shortly to share and learn about.

Thanks Loewe for the continuing education, especially the tidbit about the toymaker being placed into service to make those floor plate covers!

 

[met]

I use Speer .32 Winchester 170 gr .321 flat points over 42 gr of 4064 in shortened hxp 30-06 brass. Mine also had a very nice shiney imperial barrel. It had a heavy coating of grease on the barrel under the jacket.

That thing by the deer's head is what we call in LA a "cypress knee". They are projections on the roots of bald cypress trees that project up out of the soil in saturated ground conditions-swamps.

 

[BergerBoy]

Good shooting Met!
I see those knees now scattered on the ground in your photo.
Wasn't sure if that one was part of the a deformed antler on the deer, or maybe the result of a "head shot"!

Question on the barrel and jacket: Once you put the rifle back together, did you clean off the grease from the in between?
I'm concerned about corrosion in there, and want to make sure it stays protected, considering that it likely won't get taken apart like this for some time again.
Mine had no grease or oil noticeable on the barrel, but the steel looked nice and shiny white! Would like to keep it that way.
There was a good amount of grease (cosmoline?) in the action area, and globbed around the trigger and sear, actually soaking into the inner wood of the stock.
I'd like to clean all that out as well - any inputs there?
Not sure if that was for storage (like the Russians did on the Mosins) or for actual functionality.

 

[BergerBoy]

Here are a few more photos of the stock markings.
Let me know if anything looks particularly interesting or concerning so far.

 

[Loewe]

Did you take pictures of the barrel markings?

I wouldn't grease the barrel, if the metal is fine now, no corrosion or porosity, there is no reason to think it will develop problems as long as the environment you keep it in is stable. You might check out Gunboards for opinions on this though, I have only owned two or three G88's, only have one at the moment (also a Loewe), but I do not recall much discussion on this subject. There are serious collectors of the G88/K88/G91 out there, many have extensive experience with shooting and cleaning-preserving them. I think Parallax Bill's forum use to be the go to place on G88 business, might check them out also?

 

[BergerBoy]

Here are the details of the barrel markings.
I tried to get views from each of the positions around the diameter, adjacent to the threads for the jacket.
Please let me know their meanings if possible, or an on-line reference that I can use for look-up.
Nothing looks very "Turkish" to me in these markings, leaving just the rear sight distance markings and the bolt with Turk markings, as shown in prior posts.
(although, those upside-down Y's on the 6th photo below, look a little like the symbols on the rear sight leaf, no?)

I'll probably do some clean-up and re-assembly this weekend.
From what I've read so far, it seems that commerical, modern 8mm rounds should be ok for this rifle.
I have tons of mil-surp 8mm from gun shows, that I've used in my 98k and GEW98, but I get the impression those are too hot to handle for this old girl's construction.
I'll give it a good visual inspection as I clean, but what specifically should I look for to assess if she's capable of shooting at all?
I don't see any cracks or other indications of potential problems, but there may be issues hiding under all the crud.

Thanks

 

[Loewe]

Thanks for the effort to do detailed pictures, the "S&S" is the logo (one of them) for JP. Sauer, they made many G88 barrels apparently... though I can not confirm this personally, as too few show the barrel markings.

Here is a comment Jon Speed shared with me a year or two ago:

Paul, I saw the lovely Loewe 91 rifle on the web site. I just wanted you to know from the records I have that Sauer and Schilling appeared to be main barrel providers in the the period 1887-96 for Mauser Turkish rifles and Spanish rifles. Loewe was also using barrels from these folks so its possible that barrel on the Loewe 91 was made by these firms. ?? Just from what I see in some contract docs. Regards, Jon

Here are the details of the barrel markings.
I tried to get views from each of the positions around the diameter, adjacent to the threads for the jacket.
Please let me know their meanings if possible, or an on-line reference that I can use for look-up.

 

[WaPrüf2]

I have a bunch of German M88 system arms; I always get the barrel jacket off, thoroughly clean the interior of the jacket and exterior of barrel (including barrel jacket threads); coat liberally with Breakfree, let stand and drain a day or two and then reassemble. Jackets sometimes don't want to unscrew; avoid putting stress on the tg screw sleeve - they can snap off. In such a case I heat the jacket shoulder slightly; the problem is usually dried grease and the heat will melt it but you have to avoid overheating or the shoulder unit will detach from the jacket. I don't deal with the Turked jobs so can't comment on any problems which may be particular to them.

 

[Loewe]

Excellent advice, - these fine details can save a person some heartache too!

I have a bunch of German M88 system arms; I always get the barrel jacket off, thoroughly clean the interior of the jacket and exterior of barrel (including barrel jacket threads); coat liberally with Breakfree, let stand and drain a day or two and then reassemble. Jackets sometimes don't want to unscrew; avoid putting stress on the tg screw sleeve - they can snap off. In such a case I heat the jacket shoulder slightly; the problem is usually dried grease and the heat will melt it but you have to avoid overheating or the shoulder unit will detach from the jacket. I don't deal with the Turked jobs so can't comment on any problems which may be particular to them.

 

[gew8805]

I have to agree, excellent advice WaPrüf2.