bcd 4, help please

[GaryNC]

About 10 years ago, I bought 9 long guns from a fellow that had inherited them from his grandfather and didn't want guns around the house. Most were shotguns but one was a Springfield Trapdoor rifle and one was a K98 Mauser. I mainly shoot shotguns, handguns and my 10-22 varmit gun, so I just stuck the Mauser in the back of the closet.

A couple of weeks ago I thought that I'd dig the Mauser out of the closet and see if it was in good enough condition to put a few rounds through it. I couldn't see any light through the barrel and, on closer inspection and poking at it with a stick, it looked like the bore was packed with cosmoline. I don't know if it was factory-packed or applied by the previous owner but, if it was done by the factory, I have to assume that the rifle has never been fired and the bore is probably pristine. The breach and bolt assembly are also coated with cosmoline. Now it doesn't feel right to just clean it up and put some rounds through it, without getting more info.

I know from coin collecting that many people have destroyed the historical significance of an antique by trying to make it shine like a new penny, so I thought I should do some research about Mausers and try to understand what I had. That led pretty quickly to information overload so, when I found this forum, I thought I should probably just ask the experts. There are no papers on this gun and I don't have anyway to get its back-story.

I've been taking pictures of the markings with a camera and a handheld digital microscope so I'll post those and maybe some of you can tell me what I'm looking at. This is my first post so I still have to figure out how to post the pictures.

Here's what I think I know about it so far. It's a 1944 Gustloff that was made for commercial sales. I think it's a fairly low serial number so it may have been made during a transition period from military-grade to civilian-grade materials. There are no marking on the safety, magazine, butt plate, trigger assembly or in the barrel channel of the stock. It looks like it's been duffel cut and the upper and lower handguards and front band are missing, as is the cleaning rod and front-sight shroud. I don't find any markings to indicate that it's Russian Capture.

There doesn't seem to be as much information about commercial-sales K98s as there is for military weapons. I've done dozens of searches and mostly came up empty handed. If anyone can point to more info about these, I'd appreciate it.

I apologize for the long post but I wanted to provide as much background as possible so that yall know everything that I know about the gun. Pictures coming soon ( I hope).

BTW, I'm assuming that it's ok to post pictures of the serial number, yes? I know that some gunboards blur parts of the serial number for privacy/security purposes but they seem to be posted pretty freely on this forum.

Thanks in advance for any help and information.

 

[GaryNC]

Gonna try to add a couple of pictures now and see how it turns out.

 

[GaryNC]

Ok, that was interesting; looks like the photos worked. Here are some more photos that show the cosmoline on the rifle. That stuff gets everywhere during disassembly.

 

[GaryNC]

Photos of bolt and receiver

 

[GaryNC]

Photos of barrel markings

 

[GaryNC]

Last of the photos. Rear sight markings.

This is the end of the markings that I've been able to find. I haven't disassembled the bolt itself but will do so soon. If I find any more markings, I'll post them as well.

 

[flynaked]

Looks like a very nice commercial, first I have seen with that barrel maker, very cool. Shame about the D/C but that would be a fairly easy one to fix. Any commercial k98 is fairly sought after and I wouldn't throw one in for a shooter personally. I can't offer any insight for the production run on these.

 

[mrfarb]

Any markings on the bottom of the stock? It appears the wrist is heavily worked down, pretty typical sporterization attempt. Still, it's a cool gun and restorable but it will be difficult to find the correct parts.

 

[flynaked]

Just read through your post a little closer. This is not a gustloff rifle, it is simply using a astrawerke receiver and parts. A lot of commercial production in Zella Mehlis utilized astrawerke parts. I have a commercial 98 sporter proofed a little over a year earlier than yours in Zella Mehlis which also has a lot of Astrawerek parts. I believe, someone correct me if I am wrong that the serial on these commercial rifles is completely non linear with the other commercial k98's. I believe they were serialized in sequence with whatever happened to be going through the proof house at the time, i.e. The very next serial number may have been a drilling, again this is my understanding and I maybe totally off beat.

 

[Loewe]

I tend to agree, these rifles have nothing to do with Gustloff Werke (Weimar nor Suhl); these are reject parts that were probably just sold to small commercial operations in Z-M, obviously there were more than just one assembler, as some marked their company on the bottom of the barrel, - at least two different ones in Z-M, others are known also. The fact that most of these have bcd receivers (Astrawerke rejects all) and bcd barrels (prone to rejection is well documented) gives the wrong impression. They just had a lot more reject parts to re-sale "at this time" is my bet, - earlier you see mostly Walther (e359), but you any number of other, just what happened to be available. As for barrels, you see others beside bcd (in this period bcd had more available as rejects), including SDP, JPS FN and other barrels, even a dot is seen.

It is difficult to establish "makers" or where they all relate to one another, and i suspect they have very little in common and were assembled by several firms as parts were available.

For this variation, the bcd rejects, there is a 1943 bcd 3350 that is owned by a member here, has the same commercial proofing date, very much the same as i recall, - I suspect these were made at the same time and the date on the receiver (bcd/43 vs bcd/4) means nothing. Just reject parts assembled in December 1944. The bcd's receivers show up as early as August 1944, latest March 1945, - these were the last I think. Many earlier exist in 1943, but are more variable in make up, probably because reject parts were harder to find as the SS took all they could get... by late 1944 they didn't need to deal with rejected parts and hodgepodging, - they were in the drivers seat late in 1944, which is why the SS contracts disappeared...

 

[flynaked]

Loewe, thanks for the info on these, I find it most interesting, as I'm sure the OP does. What are the currently known "makers" if you don't mind? I will try and compare the "mod98" on my receiver with those of astrawerke and walther to see if I can maybe determine which my sporter was built on out of curiosity.
Also what about stocks, where are they typically sourced from on these rifles?

 

[Loewe]

I am sure there are others, but the below have been recorded. Most have no company name, though most people do not show under the stock where the maker is marked... so it is unknown how many were unmarked (quite a few apparently are). But there were dozens of gunsmiths and small operations in Suhl and Z-M, probably elsewhere, and many could have been involved. Many of these firms were involved in war work at the time also, however small shops easily could have made the time to do such work, even quite late. Naturally the market for such rifles is limited, powerful and influential people could and did own personal firearms, as did others I am sure, - no one knows who the "market" or target audience was, though one could imagine it was the personal or private market considering the finish (as MarkW wrote a couple decades ago):

A. Seeber

Herm. Schneider Z-M

Fr. Langenhan Z-M

Kneifel Berlin

 

[GaryNC]

Any markings on the bottom of the stock? It appears the wrist is heavily worked down, pretty typical sporterization attempt. Still, it's a cool gun and restorable but it will be difficult to find the correct parts.

No markings at all on the stock as far as I can tell. Even pulled the butt plate off and no markings under butt plate. Wrist may have been worked down, I don't know. I've looked at pictures of other bcd 4 pics and can't tell much difference but I don't have an experienced eye for that and I have no idea where to find an engineer's spec sheet for recommended girth. Seems weird that anyone would go to the trouble of sporterizing the rifle and leave it packed in cosmoline, though.

From some of the other posts on this thread, it looks like the commercial guns were made from any parts they could find laying around so I'm not sure there's such a thing as "correct parts" for this gun, ha ha.

 

[GaryNC]

I tend to agree, these rifles have nothing to do with Gustloff Werke (Weimar nor Suhl); these are reject parts that were probably just sold to small commercial operations in Z-M, obviously there were more than just one assembler, as some marked their company on the bottom of the barrel, - at least two different ones in Z-M, others are known also. The fact that most of these have bcd receivers (Astrawerke rejects all) and bcd barrels (prone to rejection is well documented) gives the wrong impression. They just had a lot more reject parts to re-sale "at this time" is my bet, - earlier you see mostly Walther (e359), but you any number of other, just what happened to be available. As for barrels, you see others beside bcd (in this period bcd had more available as rejects), including SDP, JPS FN and other barrels, even a dot is seen.

It is difficult to establish "makers" or where they all relate to one another, and i suspect they have very little in common and were assembled by several firms as parts were available.
.

If the commercials were all made from reject parts, does that mean that they have no historical value or collectors appeal? (Translation: Are they worth anything?)

What were typical reasons for rejecting parts? Quality of steel, machining precision?

I'm trying to determine if this is just a rifle to use as a shooter or if it's something that should be kept in original condition.

For this variation, the bcd rejects, there is a 1943 bcd 3350 that is owned by a member here, has the same commercial proofing date, very much the same as i recall, - I suspect these were made at the same time and the date on the receiver (bcd/43 vs bcd/4) means nothing. Just reject parts assembled in December 1944. The bcd's receivers show up as early as August 1944, latest March 1945, - these were the last I think. Many earlier exist in 1943, but are more variable in make up, probably because reject parts were harder to find as the SS took all they could get... by late 1944 they didn't need to deal with rejected parts and hodgepodging, - they were in the drivers seat late in 1944, which is why the SS contracts disappeared...

I'd be really interested in knowing who the other member is that has # 3350. I did a search on the forum and couldn't find any other mention of it, but maybe it was just in a photo and not mentioned in the post. I'd like to know his thoughts about these guns. I'm finding that getting information on the commercials quite difficult and only comes in bits and pieces.

 

[GaryNC]

I am sure there are others, but the below have been recorded. Most have no company name, though most people do not show under the stock where the maker is marked... so it is unknown how many were unmarked (quite a few apparently are). But there were dozens of gunsmiths and small operations in Suhl and Z-M, probably elsewhere, and many could have been involved. Many of these firms were involved in war work at the time also, however small shops easily could have made the time to do such work, even quite late. Naturally the market for such rifles is limited, powerful and influential people could and did own personal firearms, as did others I am sure, - no one knows who the "market" or target audience was, though one could imagine it was the personal or private market considering the finish (as MarkW wrote a couple decades ago):

A. Seeber

Herm. Schneider Z-M

Fr. Langenhan Z-M

Kneifel Berlin

So, does this photo of the barrel underside indicate that the gun was assembled at Fr. Langenhan in Zela-Mehlis or that the barrel was made there ? Is there anything you could point me to, to get more information about these commercials? Having a hard time finding any resource materials.

 

[mrfarb]

Fr. Langenham was the gunsmith that assembled the rifle, 12/44 was the date the proof house assembled it. Here are a few links to other commercials posted before"

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?8074-1944-commercial-resto

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?881-Need-some-help-with-VZ24-identification

The problem is many ended up like yours, missing parts, cut/butchered stocks, and generally not left in original condition (most I've seen for sale are restorations to some degree). I've sold some before, and in my experience they are worth what a normal 98k is worth, meaning they don't bring a premium. I think the reason is there is no "history" to them as nobody knows who they were built for. I suspect Volkssturm use, but if that's the case none were probably ever issued. Maybe local factory defense? Again, not a sexy SS squad, just some old men who may/may not have shot them.

As to shooting it, I don't' personally think it would hurt. The bore would probably be better off cleaned up.

 

[Loewe]

Of course they have value, - though I suspect much of the value is due to the "speculation" about them, or the uncertainty. There are many threads and discussions about these rifles, I have saved dozens over the years and most i didn't save as they were repetitive or nonsense... there are also old articles that collectors wrote in the 1990's, Bob Jensen and Mark Wieringa both wrote about these, though both are very dated and of little value with what has been learned over the last 20 years.

Mark's article did a good job of outlining "reasonable" explanations for their existence, why they were made, but the reasons are numerous, - and more importantly speculation. No one really knows, but I doubt these were made for VS service, though many could have, or probably ended up in the hands of the VS. PM me with your email and i will see if i can send you a copy...

- Mark also goes over the parts make up, but the short is many parts were rejected for many different reasons. Especially pre-war and early war, even small flaws could reject a part, later the military lowered standards to decrease rejection for frivolous reasons. Late in the war, as anyone can tell you, rejection was only for serious flaws.

- I suspect the rifle has value, especially if you embellish its history as most sellers do... "SS" is often used as a selling point, it is ridiculous, - by late 1944 the SS controlled the armaments industry, after Speer's illness he was undermined and the SS held key spots and had incredible influence over all production. They could get all the rifles they wanted and the Army couldn't do a damn thing about it, even if they wanted too.

- Reich1900 owns 3350, he comes to this forum I believe, but I have data on the rifle. It came out of Florida in 2006, sold by a dealer I once dealt with regularly. Old KCN'r and a big seller at Gunshows around the state. Might have passed or retired since, as i have not seen him sell on GB recently.

Here is the description from then, I have the pictures also, - Reich also posted new pictures on Gunboards in 2006 and I believe here also, though I didn't save any from this forum if he did. I have the Gunboards discussion and pictures, but they aren't great:

Auction text for 3350:

ASSEMBLED BY "bcd" (GUSTLOFF WERKE) IN 1944. THIS K98 IS COMMERCIAL PROOFED, IT HAS NO GERMAN MILITARY PROOFS. THE BARREL IS DATED 12-44 AND WAS MFG. BY FR. LANGENHAN ZELLA MEHLIS, IT HAS THE COMMERCIAL CALIBRE MARKING 8x57 JS, IT IS ALSO MARKED 44 bcd, BARREL AND RECEIVER NUMBERS MATCH, REAR SIGHT IS GERMAN WWI GEWEHR 98 "LANGE" TYPE. FRONT SIGHT IS WWII K98 WITH A SIGHT HOOD. BUTTSTOCK IS EUROPEAN HARDWOOD WITH THE BAND SPRING SLOT FILLED IN. FRONT AND REAR BANDS ARE STAMPED AND WELDED TYPE, WITH THE FRONT BAND HELD ON WITH A SCREW, THEY ARE NUMBERED 4200 AND DO NOT MATCH THE RECEIVER. THE STOCK AND HANDGUARD ARE NOT NUMBERED OR MARKED IN ANY WAY. THE TRIGGERGUARD IS BLUE STEEL STAMPED TYPE, IT IS NOT NUMBERED OR MARKED. FLOORPLATE IS MILLED STEEL, ALSO UNNUMBERED. THE BOLT IS NUMBERED 441 ON ITS HANDLE, OTHER THAN THAT THERE ARE NO OTHER MARKS ON IT. METAL FINISH ON THIS RIFLE IS ABOUT 95% WITH NO RUST OR PITTING. THE BORE IS VERY GOOD, BUT LOOKING UP THE BORE FROM THE RECEIVER THE BORE LOOKS CROOKED, WE BELIEVE THE BARREL IS BENT, WE BELIEVE THIS RIFLE WAS ASSEMBLED WITH WHATEVER WAS ON HAND. IT IS LATE WWII MFG. FOR SURE. NO IT IS NOT AN ALL MATCHING PERFECT RIFLE, BUT IT SURE EXHIBITS THE EXTENT TO WHICH THE GERMAN ARMS INDUSTRY WOULD GO TO ASSEMBLE RIFLES, WE HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE LIKE THIS BEFORE, THIS TYPE OF RIFLE IS PICTURED IN LAWS BOOK PAGE 297, "BACKBONE OF THE WEHRMACHT", COMES WITH A CLEANING ROD AND SIGHT HOOD. MORE PICTURES ARE AVAILABLE ON REQUEST VIA E-MAIL. PAYMENT IS IN CASHIERS CHECK OR MONEY ORDER, BUYER PAYS FIXED (NON REFUNDABLE) AMOUNT FOR PACKING, SHIPPING AND INSURANCE, THIS AMOUNT DEPENDS ON THE BUYERS LOCATION. FFL OR C&R NEEDED TO SHIP.

If the commercials were all made from reject parts, does that mean that they have no historical value or collectors appeal? (Translation: Are they worth anything?)

What were typical reasons for rejecting parts? Quality of steel, machining precision?

I'm trying to determine if this is just a rifle to use as a shooter or if it's something that should be kept in original condition.



I'd be really interested in knowing who the other member is that has # 3350. I did a search on the forum and couldn't find any other mention of it, but maybe it was just in a photo and not mentioned in the post. I'd like to know his thoughts about these guns. I'm finding that getting information on the commercials quite difficult and only comes in bits and pieces.