I have a beautiful German occupation FN Hi Power rig that is in its original brown holster. This makes me wonder about the color of the holster. Most belts I see are black in color with the exception of some double claw buckled ones ,so were brown Holsters worn on black belts?? Was brown Luft associated ? Can somebody shed some light on this for me??
Black vs Brown Holsters
- Thread starter SSGMac
- Start date
Neat rig. GP.35s are my favorite. There are relatively few black GP.35 German holsters. Brown is generally associated with Luftwaffe use, but also Heer officer use and probably general use. An order came down at some point in late 1943 or 1944 that required all leather gear to be dyed black. That coincided with the creation of Luftwaffe ground divisions, and also their merger into Heer units.
A pistol, as an issue item, was an item normally reserved for officers, MG crews, vehicle crews, etc. Thus leather color (brown or black) was likely of not too much concern.
A pistol, as an issue item, was an item normally reserved for officers, MG crews, vehicle crews, etc. Thus leather color (brown or black) was likely of not too much concern.
gummipuppe
Señor Member biatch
I don't know about military use of brown holsters like this, but certain divisions of the Nazi era German federalized Ordnungspolizei (Order Police) used them. One division, the Gendarmerie, wore brown leather belts, boots, shoulder straps, cap visors and chin straps, and holsters. They were tasked with policing rural parts of Germany. A Gendarmerie officer is shown on the left on this book cover:
gummipuppe
Señor Member biatch
The Gendarmerie continued to wear brown leather until at least the end of the war.
BTW, my dad carried an FN Hi-Power that looked exactly like that when he was a cop in Chicago. When he stared carrying it in the late '60s, he was a trail blazer because the overwhelming majority of his fellow officers were carrying revolvers. I now own it. It's a great pistol. I'd love to have a German occupied version like yours.
BTW, my dad carried an FN Hi-Power that looked exactly like that when he was a cop in Chicago. When he stared carrying it in the late '60s, he was a trail blazer because the overwhelming majority of his fellow officers were carrying revolvers. I now own it. It's a great pistol. I'd love to have a German occupied version like yours.
iron bender
750 Press Operator
Early on leather gear, belts, boots, holsters, frogs, maybe light weight y-straps were issued in the buff, and blackening of the leather occurred at unit level. I'm positive belts and ammo pouches were issued both brown (natural) and black in 1944. I have never considered brown gear luft and black gear heer/ss. Just like "tropical" web gear isn't tropical, but merely ersatz and was issued heavily in North Africa due to climate conditions. My personal belief is 1942 is the first year of wholesale issue black dye leather gear.
gummipuppe
Señor Member biatch
Not sure where you would find an original belt for that, but here's a decent repro officer's belt:
You can get it here:
http://www.hessenantique.com/Officer_s_Leather_Belt_p/2118590.htm
I bought a black version for my reenacting impression and I'm happy with it. The buckle has the pebbled finish like the real thing.
gummipuppe
Señor Member biatch
Yep. I have some late 1930s original K98k ammo pouches that are brown leather on the back, but died black on the front, top, bottom, and sides.
I understand that when low boots were issued late war, they were brown. Soldaten often dyed them black after issue.
8x57mauser
Senior Member
I carry my police marked Steyr Hahn 08 conversion in a brown holster on a black belt for my SS-Feldgendarmerie kit. Mainly because nobody makes a reproduction holster in anything but brown and partially because in my research I've come across a handful of Feldgendarmerie color pictures that appear to be late war and in two of them, one has a brown Steyr Hahn holster on a black belt, the other is a brown holster for probably some .32 cal pistol on a black belt.
I'll add that somebody else needs to start making repro holsters for these, the current one is not all that great.
I'll add that somebody else needs to start making repro holsters for these, the current one is not all that great.
mauser99
Senior Member
Its quite obvious from examples seen that p35b holsters stayed brown for the most part unless field dyed. P35p holsters stayed brown till the very end and minty un-issued black examples do show up. Most wartime photos are black and white so its hard to see what color holster are in most photos. Most occupation weapons went to the SS and most wartime photos do back that claim.
Luger holsters for the most part stop being brown after 41 but Im sure examples exist to challenge that claim. Same with p38 holsters...
Luger holsters for the most part stop being brown after 41 but Im sure examples exist to challenge that claim. Same with p38 holsters...
gummipuppe
Señor Member biatch
Yep. Keep in mind that control of the Ordnungpolizei was taken away from Reichsmarschall Göring and given to Reichsführer Himmler, so it's possible that the Hi Power could have been carried by a Gendarmerie.
mauser99
Senior Member
I have yet to see a police marked P35b or p for that matter.
I have a Luftwaffe proofed CZ 24 rig with tan holster made by Krieghoff and 40 dated. Other than pix in Still's book, I can't find much info as to production numbers. It has deeper belt loops than standard and was most likely worn under the flight suit, having seen considerable use. Does anyone have any info on these?
I believe that the GP.35 would have been a combat arm provided pistol, particularly inasmuch as it was 9mm. In fact, the majority of period pictures I have seen of them have been in use by the Waffen SS. I don't think they would have been a polizei issued pistol.
Early Luftwaffe leather gear is always chocolate-brown or aubergine-colored. Usually marked with Luftwaffe acceptance (L.B.A. ....) inside center lid.
Some typical shades of brown. From top.
ca. 1944 pouch with R.B.Nr. only
1935 Luftwaffe
1933 Army and Organizations
late 1920s/very early 1930s SA pouch.
Thanks
Attachments
Excellent pouches.Very unlikely you will find one of these in the US, but you never know.
In 1924 the Reichswehr introduced the small ammo pouch for general use in all branches. The small ammo pouch is also known as Kavallerie-Patronentasche and Patronentasche pattern 1911.
Please note the mixture of brass and steel fittings.
Some day between 1929 and 1932 the German Army changed the general color of their ammo pouches from chocolate brown to light brown.
If anyone out there has an ammo pouch dated 1930 - 1931, please post it here.
Thanks
In 1924 the Reichswehr introduced the small ammo pouch for general use in all branches. The small ammo pouch is also known as Kavallerie-Patronentasche and Patronentasche pattern 1911.
Please note the mixture of brass and steel fittings.
Some day between 1929 and 1932 the German Army changed the general color of their ammo pouches from chocolate brown to light brown.
If anyone out there has an ammo pouch dated 1930 - 1931, please post it here.
Thanks
Attachments
and they changed from the mixture of brass/steel fittings to aluminum fittings.