bnz. 43 with non-standard sling loop

[jch202]

Hi all,

I have come across a bnz. 43 K98k with non-standard sling loops (matching serial numbers). They appear similar to the ones used in the G29Ö and look as if they had come originally with the rifle and not been added later. I have never seen this variant. Has anyone seen similar samples? Does anyone know if there is a particular reason why these sling loops have been added in addition to the standard oned?

 

[flynaked]

It’s a postwar addition, not sure what country’s rendition of the 98k but I’ve seen a good amount of these bands in parts bins, also stocks with the added sling loop on them. This isn’t a G12/34 part either, that would carry an e623 inspection and is also shaped differently.

 

[jch202]

Thanks for the swift heads up. That makes sense. You can spot on one the pictures that there is a stamp on the barrel "8x57 IS" and "FWW" which was added post war, too. WWF stands for "Frankonia Waffen Würzburg", the largest German firearms retailer who imported large # of K98ks and Gewehr 98s in the 70s. The post war proof mark "879" dates back to August 1979, Munich proof house. So this rifle must have been reimported into Germany. Serial # are matching, so unlikely Soviet capture.

The other rifles with the same added sling loops you have seen, did they have any common pattern? These additions must have been done systematically then, potentially in large quantities by a foreign military.... ?

 

[flynaked]

I’ve seen a handful of the Frankonia imports in pictures in Europe, but I’ve yet to see one in the states personally. Honestly, whatever country modified these has been a complete mystery to me, maybe someone knows? Yours is only the second complete one I can remember seeing, other clues have just been the loose parts only, here’s a stock for instance, it apparently makes use of a Chilean part for its swivel. I’ve wondered for years who modified these, just out of random curiosity, and it doesn’t seem Russian as you’ve noted.

 

[sprat]

Some east german rifles have this type sling holder, but i believe they are found on rifles that left EG for export, without seeing more pictures I could not say if this a EG rifle does this rifle have a sight hood?????

I have been frankonia in Berlin, three story building lots of neat stuff, but it was not like the old SARCO in NJ

 

[jch202]

Yes it does have the typical Steyr sight hood.

One thing that could hint towards it not being EG is the fact that it does not have an EG proof mark (Suhl proof house). Its proof mark is WG, Munich. Further below I have commented on it being potentially Portuguese. Portugal is not a member of CIP, thus it would explain why it received its post war proof marks only in 1976 in Munich.

 

[jch202]

I’ve seen a handful of the Frankonia imports in pictures in Europe, but I’ve yet to see one in the states personally. Honestly, whatever country modified these has been a complete mystery to me, maybe someone knows? Yours is only the second complete one I can remember seeing, other clues have just been the loose parts only, here’s a stock for instance, it apparently makes use of a Chilean part for its swivel. I’ve wondered for years who modified these, just out of random curiosity, and it doesn’t seem Russian as you’ve noted.

I've got a lead I think. It could be potentially Portuguese made. Take a look at the one in the link; this rifle also has this swivel and additional front sling loop, which could hint towards a requirement of the Portuguese army at the time. Similar to Spain, Portugal was using German firearms after the war. My take is that it must have been a western military that made this modification as it is a common pattern and must have been done in large scale. In addition, Frankonia must have bought them in large quantities, and that is only possible if a military is phasing them out and selling them on the wholesale market.

https://www.collector-firearms.de/v...echse-mauser-1937-mod-k-98-kal-8-x-87-is.html

 

[jch202]

Here are some more pictures

 

[Absolut]

The Police of Vienna reworked those to the "neue Trageart". Not all, just a smaller part of their guns, but as far as I remember more than thousand. Those were later handed over to the Austrian Ministry of Interior who then sold these off in large batches to German retailers. May I ask, does the rifle have any number stamped to the left side of the butt stock? Is the buttplate serialized? I'm already on Christmas holiday, but if you bring this thread up on 11th January 2021 I will check the Waffenbuch of the Vienna Police if I can find the entry - but would need the serial for this. Don't expect too much, it is mainly the serial with a date (and in most cases even without a suffix, so it isn't for sure it is exactly the same weapon), but if you are happy on that I could look it up.

 

[jch202]

The Police of Vienna reworked those to the "neue Trageart". Not all, just a smaller part of their guns, but as far as I remember more than thousand. Those were later handed over to the Austrian Ministry of Interior who then sold these off in large batches to German retailers. May I ask, does the rifle have any number stamped to the left side of the butt stock? Is the buttplate serialized? I'm already on Christmas holiday, but if you bring this thread up on 11th January 2021 I will check the Waffenbuch of the Vienna Police if I can find the entry - but would need the serial for this. Don't expect too much, it is mainly the serial with a date (and in most cases even without a suffix, so it isn't for sure it is exactly the same weapon), but if you are happy on that I could look it up.

Yes that would be great if you could. Much appreciated.

No number on either side of the butt stock. Butt plate has no serial #. This rifle is a bnz. 43 , serial # 4217, u block. Wehrmacht contract.

I will bring this thread up again post 11th Jan.

 

[Absolut]

Well, made distance access to my computer ... I found an entry for serial 4217 with an unreadable suffix (could be a or u?) dating 4th September 1957. Place says hand written "L". I also found 4217v (at least looks like a v?), dating 14th October 1969 that was handed over to the Ministry of Interior.

 

[CLG]

Back in the late ‘60’s Hunters Lodge had a ton of these brought in by Interarmco. My first K98 was a BYF 44 from there with these same modifications. Some had scrubbed receivers, mine didn’t. All I saw were in nice shape so probably from Europe not the third world.

 

[sprat]

Yes it does have the typical Steyr sight hood.

One thing that could hint towards it not being EG is the fact that it does not have an EG proof mark (Suhl proof house). Its proof mark is WG, Munich. Further below I have commented on it being potentially Portuguese. Portugal is not a member of CIP, thus it would explain why it received its post war proof marks only in 1976 in Munich.

it takes more than eg proof to make a east german rifle, some have none, I look for other indicators,

also same with P-38's & lugers, I walk away from about 20 P-38's a year (in person sales) probably 10 are east german rebuilds, the seller do not know it and I do not tell them, takes more than the VOPO proof or suhl proof, saw one for sale last week on Gun boards, no one knew what it was, I was not interested

the question has anyone seen this sling swivel in that location before, I have seen romy, yugo & Bulgy stocks with those swivels, usually warsaw pact rebuilds

 

[jch202]

Well, made distance access to my computer ... I found an entry for serial 4217 with an unreadable suffix (could be a or u?) dating 4th September 1957. Place says hand written "L". I also found 4217v (at least looks like a v?), dating 14th October 1969 that was handed over to the Ministry of Interior.

Superb! Thank you very much for your effort! Mine is indeed the "4217 u"! I just saw your post right now (should have checked earlier).

Do you happen to know how the Vienna Police ended up with those rifles?

 

[Absolut]

Do you happen to know how the Vienna Police ended up with those rifles?

You should be able to guess this, but they were left over from WWII...

 

[jch202]

You should be able to guess this, but they were left over from WWII...

I was wondering if these rifles had been in their possession before the end of the war already. Vienna surrendered to the Soviets with little damage done to the City and had negotiated some terms. Maybe their Police was allowed to keep their weapons.

The date you mentioned in the Waffenbuch, is that the date when the Police received the rifle, or when they handed it over to the Interior Ministry?

 

[Absolut]

The date is the entry date, meaning on this day it was recorded. They could have had it much longer than that date.

How they ended up in the hands of the police is not clear. I would however certainly outrule all of them were in the possession of the Police by end of WWII. Most were first confiscated and then later handed over/back. For example the French left nearly all K98k rifles they had in Austria when they left, therefore nearly all post WWII Austrian Army SSG98k sniper rifles have the additional French sling swivel.

 

[DukeIronHand]

Yes it does have the typical Steyr sight hood.

I have me a Steyr and it has what I believe to be a period sight hood but how does one tell?