Dutch Mannlicher M1895 German Capture ?

[7up]

Hi there, I am considering purchasing a Hembrug 1916 long rifle M1895. It has the stock modified to take a K98 sling. It's not all matching. Bolt matches itself. How desirable are these, and are there any markings that i need to look out for please?

Will post pictures later

 

[7up]

Hi and sorry for posting in the wrong category.
Okay here we go, this is advertised as a carbine (looks a bit long ?)
Pictures as promised. Buttplate has fill holes. Matching except bolt , which matches itself.
Will ask about duffle cut and any other markings. Generally where are the depot / rework markings if any ?

Thanks

 

[Pat]

Hi 7up,
It's definitely the long rifle version. A depot stamp on these would be on the underside of the stock, just south of the trigger guard/magazine assembly. Don't be alarmed if it lacks a depot stamp, most of these don't have one. The stock sling cut-out and the associated reworking of the rear barrel band to allow side carry is your proof positive of this having been modified by the Germans in WWII. I'm not sure what to say about the butt plate, that is interesting.

I'd also look for a serial number stamped across the width of the underside of the stock between the trigger guard and butt plate. One step that was done to modify these from standard to side sling carry was to remove the rear sling swivel (as was done on this one) and fill in the cavity with a wood inlay. This rifle probably has that, too. Even being a bolt only mismatch, this is a desirable variant. The intact cleaning rod is a plus, even if not matching.

 

[7up]

Thanks very much, I wait to see what comes back. I have seen previous posts about the sling slot variances and the KNIL issued rifles, is there any chance this is could be a KNIL ?

 

[Pat]

Sure, but most of those were configured somewhat differently than the ones that stayed in service in the Netherlands. I've seen ex-KNIL long rifles that had the sling slot cut-out. These were German captured rifles that were in return either recaptured or surrendered/abandoned, then shipped off to the East Indies. Does your have an importer's marking anywhere on it?

 

[7up]

Hi thanks. As far as i am aware there are no other markings , other than the legacy Dutch ones. Of course depot markings (if real) are a plus, but if the stock alterations are significant enough proof this has been captured by the Germans, that should be okay i guess?

 

[DocAV]

These German converted M95s were issued to Troops accompanying Wehrmacht Hospital Trains. Whilst not needed in Greater Germany, Partizan activities in Poland, France, the Balkans etc. necessitated there being armed guards on such Trains.
Photos exist of such Guards with M95s " Carbine Slung" in the German manner.
Hirtenberger made SteelCased 6,5×53R ammo for these Units as well as for MG use on Atlantic Wall ( Dutch Schwarzelose and Madsens, and Lewis guns).

 

[Stan]

These German converted M95s were issued to Troops accompanying Wehrmacht Hospital Trains. Whilst not needed in Greater Germany, Partizan activities in Poland, France, the Balkans etc. necessitated there being armed guards on such Trains.
Photos exist of such Guards with M95s " Carbine Slung" in the German manner.
Hirtenberger made SteelCased 6,5×53R ammo for these Units as well as for MG use on Atlantic Wall ( Dutch Schwarzelose and Madsens, and Lewis guns).

There is also the famous photos from the Market Garden operation of the ambushed and killed German general Kussin at Arnhem. His dead driver is seen with a Dutch M95 carbine by his side!

 

[7up]

Thanks all, so based on the info. A good mildly uncommon desirable rifle to go for ?

 

[Pat]

Certainly uncommon with that alteration, but asking price gets a vote, too.

 

[Pat]

There is also the famous photos from the Market Garden operation of the ambushed and killed German general Kussin at Arnhem. His dead driver is seen with a Dutch M95 carbine by his side!

Like any captured rifle for which a decent amount of ammo could be supplied, the Dutch Mannlichers saw use almost everywhere the Wehrmacht was, and even the RAD in both training and operational capacities.

 

[7up]

Hi there, some more pictures. Perhaps a little concerned about the speckling under the handguard, but bore looks good inside ?
Handloading, can I use 6.5mm Mannlicher Schoenauer die set with a .303 shell holder and cases to make the cartridges. I also have 30-40 Krag cases ?

 

[Pat]

Looks good!

Case forming for 6.5 Dutch is more complicated than that. Start by using well lubed UNFIRED US made (Remington, Winchester) .303 brass, run it through a .308 Win. die to bump the shoulder back. Then run them through a 7mm-08 FL die, then your 6.5 M-S die. Trim to length and fire-form. Dutch military bullets were 156 grains, so 160 gr. modern made stuff is fine, but there's also load data for 120 and 140 grain bullets. Since this caliber is basically a 6.5 M-S with a rim, load data for the latter cartridge is used.

 

[7up]

Thanks very much for your help, just snagged the rifle , its mine !
Could I get away with using 7x57 in place of 7mm-08. I have those dies already ?

 

[7up]

Hi, rifle will be home with me soon. Slings, what is the right sling a Dutch one or a K98 ?
Got 4 x en-bloc clips and a 6.5MS die set too. Also have some HXP .303 sadly once fired that have been sitting around for years unused, so may try my luck with forming those?

 

[RyanE]

Slings, what is the right sling a Dutch one or a K98 ?

This variation had Dutch slings screwed into the hole in the sling well. You will not find an original sling or an original screw.

I have some pictures of one that retained it's original sling. I try and find them.

 

[7up]

Thanks, okay I have a box of unused repro slings. One of which I think I can generate and age to look like a period Dutch one. A repro G98 sling may be a good donor I think with modded buckle
I tend to do this with many of my collection where originals are not available (or cost too much!!).

I believe this is one ?

 

[RyanE]

That is one, I think I have another.

 

[Pat]

Thanks very much for your help, just snagged the rifle , its mine !
Could I get away with using 7x57 in place of 7mm-08. I have those dies already ?

...
Got 4 x en-bloc clips and a 6.5MS die set too. Also have some HXP .303 sadly once fired that have been sitting around for years unused, so may try my luck with forming those?

7X57 won't do it, the 7mm-08 is what you want. Avoid once-fired anything, but especially British surplus. The Remington or Winchester will be easier to work with. Once-fired Brit .303 gave me nothing but problems.

 

[7up]

Thanks, I can buy remington 303 new. I do actually have some new never fired 30-40 Krag brass. Can I use these ?