DWM assembly numbers
- Thread starter Loewe
- Start date
Storz might say, but that would mean wading through his convoluted text... never has a book been in more need of an index.
Hopefully Bob and Ken will lend their experience to the questions, both are far more versed than I am on the mechanical side of these rifles.
Hopefully Bob and Ken will lend their experience to the questions, both are far more versed than I am on the mechanical side of these rifles.
Fal Grunt
Senior Member
Two questions, if I might ask?
First, assembly numbers are pretty normal for the Suhl gunmakers, though I have never studied their military production to know if that also carries over. One would think the processes would not change given the rifles being manufactured. Being much more knowledgeable about the military side of production, do you think that these components could have been fit or assembled by a third party, similar to the processes used in the Suhl guntrade?
Second, do you have a hypothesis or idea yet as far as this applying to greater DWM production or do you think it strictly applied to the Gew 98 production? Just curious? I may tear down a few DWM rifles to see. Thinking 1908, 1909, etc contract rifles.
First, assembly numbers are pretty normal for the Suhl gunmakers, though I have never studied their military production to know if that also carries over. One would think the processes would not change given the rifles being manufactured. Being much more knowledgeable about the military side of production, do you think that these components could have been fit or assembled by a third party, similar to the processes used in the Suhl guntrade?
Second, do you have a hypothesis or idea yet as far as this applying to greater DWM production or do you think it strictly applied to the Gew 98 production? Just curious? I may tear down a few DWM rifles to see. Thinking 1908, 1909, etc contract rifles.
Loewe, please feel free to use any pics of mine that are relevant anywhere you might need them.
Here is another (I don't believe I have posted elswhere) of the stock and I noticed what looks to be an 8 just to the left of the disk. I do not recall seeing another stock with a similar stamp in that area and it may just be incidental but thought I would post it.
Here is another (I don't believe I have posted elswhere) of the stock and I noticed what looks to be an 8 just to the left of the disk. I do not recall seeing another stock with a similar stamp in that area and it may just be incidental but thought I would post it.
Attachments
pzjgr
EOD - bombs and bullets
Interesting topic, I have a DWM I'll dig out, and see if I can get pics too...
Also, Lithgow used assembly numbers on the No.1 Mk III's they built, and the Japanese used assembly numbers on early Type 99's, and maybe Type 38's too (I don't know much on the 38's...) so it seems it was a used practice to keep the fitted parts together until serialing...
Also, Lithgow used assembly numbers on the No.1 Mk III's they built, and the Japanese used assembly numbers on early Type 99's, and maybe Type 38's too (I don't know much on the 38's...) so it seems it was a used practice to keep the fitted parts together until serialing...
I have no preconceived notions or opinions regarding the project, they tend to distort the project if you hold them too dearly... as I experienced writing my article on the Suhl Consortium production, I had a theory going in and tried to conjure up excuses for why it wasn't fitting until I finally realized what I was doing (becoming a rifle collector version of a climate change "scientist", - someone that allows their "interests" cloud their judgment and research, though to be fair to climate change alarmists, their livelihood rests upon their "conclusions" declaring a problem exists, the bigger the problem the more their job security)
I haven't examined other makers where these numbers are so pronounced, though maybe i wasn't looking or had noticed, - this thread was prompted by Bob's outline and the numerous discussions that have touched upon them.
I read somewhere, probably some book, but maybe Jon Speed, that Mauser and DWM had a rather craftsmanship orientated work force, basically a strong reliance upon older craftsmen, sort of guilds of the past (which had suffered since the revolutions of 1848 and earlier in France's numerous revolutions). I was thinking that these two firms held on to the traditions more than the arsenals, but the Suhl makers too would have a stronger connection to tradition.
In regards to the Suhl makers, they seem less prone to this practice, at least in the same manner of application. Attached JPS/15 2704/e
I haven't examined other makers where these numbers are so pronounced, though maybe i wasn't looking or had noticed, - this thread was prompted by Bob's outline and the numerous discussions that have touched upon them.
I read somewhere, probably some book, but maybe Jon Speed, that Mauser and DWM had a rather craftsmanship orientated work force, basically a strong reliance upon older craftsmen, sort of guilds of the past (which had suffered since the revolutions of 1848 and earlier in France's numerous revolutions). I was thinking that these two firms held on to the traditions more than the arsenals, but the Suhl makers too would have a stronger connection to tradition.
In regards to the Suhl makers, they seem less prone to this practice, at least in the same manner of application. Attached JPS/15 2704/e
Attachments
Appreciate the use of the pictures, - the "8" above the cypher, if that is what you are referring too, is actually a "B" and stands for the stock being made of beech. DWM did it this way most of their production run (up through early 1917). DWM not being one for following another's lead apparently. While Mauser gets a lot of credit for the quality and being the home to the great Paul Mauser, developer/inventor and all, DWM was a larger operation and made more rifles most years, plus they were where everything happened, making machine guns and pistols along with many rifle innovations or expediencies. DWM was the one that went from zero G98 1910-1913 then surpass Mauser in 1915 and 1916, almost overnight, then shows up with two-piece stocks and arguably just as good production most of the war, - that with revolution in the streets (1917-1919 - Mauser never had red mobs terrorizing the streets), - and unlike Spandau, who allowed the mob to arm themselves with rifles, no such occurrence at DWM known.
More from Bob, I will add it to his original comments in post #1
Paul: The notes I have are an English translation by me of a section of an article in the August 1980 issue of the Deutsches Waffen Journal. That article was a history of Erfurt Arsenal from the early 19th century to 1918. The section I translated was an account of how the Gew.98 was assembled and marked, and (I assume) based on some earlier printed source. I do not still have the article in the original German.
The steps in assembling the Gew.98 from parts to finished product: (1.) the action (less magazine box assy) is assembled from parts and screwed onto a stripped barrel, and the assembly is numbered (2.) proof firing (3.) barrel has sights fitted and muzzle crowned (4.) magazine assembly added (5.) serial number placed on barrel, receiver, and bolt (6.) barrel removed; barrel and mag box blued (7.) action assembly reattached to barrel (8.) stock and fittings added (9.) complete disassembly and all appropriate parts numbered (10.) barrel bands and buttplate blued (11.) final assembly (12.) Abnahmepruefung added.
Couple points to note: I don’t think that the numbering referred to in step 1 was a permanent marking in metal; perhaps a tag? Otherwise the idea the full number was added first as seen in step 5, and then the brief numbering of small parts of step 9 make sense to me. Another point not mentioned above is the fact that the first reference to the rear sight and mag box/floorplate assemblies has them disassembled as a step in the production process. This suggests to me these components were not united in the general parts assembly but rather were fitted as assemblies elsewhere (in the parent factory or elsewhere) and supplied as complete units.
Bob
Paul: The notes I have are an English translation by me of a section of an article in the August 1980 issue of the Deutsches Waffen Journal. That article was a history of Erfurt Arsenal from the early 19th century to 1918. The section I translated was an account of how the Gew.98 was assembled and marked, and (I assume) based on some earlier printed source. I do not still have the article in the original German.
The steps in assembling the Gew.98 from parts to finished product: (1.) the action (less magazine box assy) is assembled from parts and screwed onto a stripped barrel, and the assembly is numbered (2.) proof firing (3.) barrel has sights fitted and muzzle crowned (4.) magazine assembly added (5.) serial number placed on barrel, receiver, and bolt (6.) barrel removed; barrel and mag box blued (7.) action assembly reattached to barrel (8.) stock and fittings added (9.) complete disassembly and all appropriate parts numbered (10.) barrel bands and buttplate blued (11.) final assembly (12.) Abnahmepruefung added.
Couple points to note: I don’t think that the numbering referred to in step 1 was a permanent marking in metal; perhaps a tag? Otherwise the idea the full number was added first as seen in step 5, and then the brief numbering of small parts of step 9 make sense to me. Another point not mentioned above is the fact that the first reference to the rear sight and mag box/floorplate assemblies has them disassembled as a step in the production process. This suggests to me these components were not united in the general parts assembly but rather were fitted as assemblies elsewhere (in the parent factory or elsewhere) and supplied as complete units.
Bob
daddyusmaximus
Member
I see some of these are stated as being from 1916, 1915... How do you tell the date of manufacture? I'm not finding a chart anywhere, but I did find a thread where a member asked... he got no answer. Just got my first Mauser, eager to learn about it.
My serial number... 7415 with a "B".
My serial number... 7415 with a "B".
I am pretty sure DWM abandoned contract production by 1915-1916. Some of these rifles still on hand may have been taken over by the military but actual production would have ceased by 1915-1916, as Germany (and the Entente) were having a rifle crisis early in the war. There weren't enough rifles available...