John Wall April 21, 2004
This thread was purged on Gunboards, but it is worthwhile to use it here. The text of the thread is below, I edited out some of the unimportant posts, but left the details and knowledgeable posts. I chose ten of the 20 or so pictures uploaded, but because John Wall posted this rifle again in 2011, you can view them all here:
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthr...orning&highlight=brighten+cold+Sunday+morning...
John Wall
Gold Bullet Club
USA
443 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 06:37:49 AM
Friends,
While in Europe several weeks ago, I had the opportunity to examine and photograph an 1903 Erfurt Kar 98 which is not only an untouched, unissued weapon, but one which was not included in Hans Lehner's famous Kar 98 study published 30 years ago in DWJ and "Gun Collector's Digest". I have 22 photos to post, so I will do this in three groups.
Also, knowing that I had a Kar 98 in my hands whose rear sights were in virtually mint, original condition, and knowing that Ned was looking for such a rear sight, I took a number of pictures of this "mini" Lange configuration in the hopes that it might help Ned in his restoration. The pictures are of the size and density so that they can be enlarged to show small markings and detail.
Brest Regards,
John
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Edited by - John Wall on 04/22/2004 02:13:54 AM
mman
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member
568 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 07:43:11 AM
Great John, but you had me going for a moment, until I looked at all the pictures. (You know how anal I am about sights)
A 1904 rifle should NOT have an original 2-1800m sight, it should be 3-18. The rifle you picture is a 1903, not a 1904.
Thanks for the great stuff. I'm sure I'm not the only one sitting on the edge of my chair...
Jack
A Mauser for me, a Mauser for you, all I want is a M1892. Spanish that is.
REAL Mausers are made at Oberndorf
Their are only two religions on this planet. One is that God is God, the other is that man is god.
John Wall
Gold Bullet Club
USA
443 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 08:27:06 AM
Hi Jack,
Opppps on me! You are correct, I copied the year date incorrectly. I'll fix the typo and make it "1903" as per the receiver crest.
Thanks!
Regards,
John
Edited by - John Wall on 04/21/2004 8:17:37 PM
jebber
Gunboards Premium Member
USA
72 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 08:48:47 AM
Awesome rifle, great pics.
Two questions - If you don't mind me asking....
Where and how did this rifle surface?
What's a ballpark price if it went private sale?
Please post more pics - I'd especially like to see stock cartouches.
Thanx
jb
mman
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member
568 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 09:55:17 AM
John can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it was in the British Royal Armouries Museum in Leed's England.
It is doubtful that any 98 carbine in comparable condition has ever been offered for sale. The average example would very likely fetch $5000-10000. The carbine pictured would be almost priceless IMO.
Only 33 appear in the survey John mentions. Only 16 were in private hands. And this example seems to be the singular example with it's original 2-18 rear sight. All other 1903 2nd variations listed were converted "back" to the M88 cartridge with 2-1200m sights installed.
It is breath taking. But that is what we should expect from museums.
Jack
A Mauser for me, a Mauser for you, all I want is a M1892. Spanish that is.
REAL Mausers are made at Oberndorf
Their are only two religions on this planet. One is that God is God, the other is that man is god.
John Wall
Gold Bullet Club
USA
443 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 9:02:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jebber
Awesome rifle, great pics.
Two questions - If you don't mind me asking....
Where and how did this rifle surface?
What's a ballpark price if it went private sale?
Please post more pics - I'd especially like to see stock cartouches.
Thanx
jb
Hi jb,
This carbine's provinence I am unsure of since I had a very limited amount of the curator's time. However, in my limited experience in national museums, older arms of this high level of condition are generally rifles that were originally government-to-government exchanges or trial rifles. This is certainly the case in the US at the Springfield Armory Museum.
Regarding value, I know of three Kar 98's which have sold at public auction in the past 5 years. The best of the lot, the only matching one, sold for around $7,500 including auction house fees. I would suspect this carbine, with it history and current owner (MoD Pattern Room), would sell in the US$10-12,000 range, if not higher. But from what I saw, there is no chance of this happening.
Best Regards,
John
Edited by - John Wall on 04/21/2004 9:04:48 PM
John Wall
Gold Bullet Club
USA
443 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 9:24:19 PM
Hi Paul,
Lehner's study identified 10 carbines made at Erfurt in 1903, whose serial numbers ranged from 0001 to 1498. According to Lehner's data, numbers 0001 through 0905, and number 1498, are marked "98" on their siderails, while numbers 1095 through 1221 are marked "Kar 98". This carbine, number 1071 marked "Kar 98" adds a bit more information on side rail markings, but little else.
Interestingly, Lehner notes that all the "Kar 98s" which are near the serial number of this carbine (1071) are all unit marked "M.G.A", machine gun detachments. This carbine has no unit markings whatsoever, having apparently been pulled out of stock well before its compansion arms were issued.
Best Regards,
John
John Wall
Gold Bullet Club
USA
443 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 9:32:53 PM
Hi John,
I'm unsure how this survival took place, but the collection, I would assume, must have gone into deep storage until the aerial bomb and guided missile threat ended in 1945.
Regards,
John
mman
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member
568 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 9:44:20 PM
Maybe JPS would know, but I suspect they simply were not issued after the trials and adoption of the K98a(AZ) in 1908-09? Were not many converted to training rifles and others converted to 7mm and sold surplus to Mexico? I suspect the unit marks were from the trial issue and not service in the great war?
Jack
A Mauser for me, a Mauser for you, all I want is a M1892. Spanish that is.
REAL Mausers are made at Oberndorf
Their are only two religions on this planet. One is that God is God, the other is that man is god.
John Wall
Gold Bullet Club
USA
443 PostsPosted - 04/22/2004 : 02:29:02 AM
Hi Mike,
There is a finish on the stock, that much I can verify. Frankly, after examining the carbine in the storage vault in normal "basement" type lighting, there is much more detail visable in these hastily taken pictures than there was to the naked eye when I had the carbine in hand! The close-up lens and the flash reveal much more detail, even though the carbine is never fully in focus in any one picture. I find myself sitting in front of my monitor looking at these pictures, and thinking, "Wow! did I see that?" and "I don't remember this rifle looking THAT good!".
That being said, it is very hard to tell, a century later, if there is an intentionally-applied lacquer or vanish finish of some sort. It may well be a plain oil finish, which has simply hardened over the years, as substances like linseed oil will. It also might be a substance mixed togther containing varnish,linseed oil, and a thinnner of some sort.
Best Regards,
John
Edited by - John Wall on 04/23/2004 12:24:59 PM
JPS
Moderator - WWI Arms & Militaria Collector
USA
683 PostsPosted - 04/23/2004 : 9:52:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mman
Maybe JPS would know, but I suspect they simply were not issued after the trials and adoption of the K98a(AZ) in 1908-09? Were not many converted to training rifles and others converted to 7mm and sold surplus to Mexico? I suspect the unit marks were from the trial issue and not service in the great war?
Jack
Yo Gents,
Great photo presentation John. What a beautiful example of an extremely rare carbine! Like you, my exprience with Museum specimens tends to support the presence of pattern room examples that were openly exchanged between Govts. rather than post war captured weapons. Not that most Museum collections don't have plenty of wartime captured specimens, but simply that no issue weapon would have ever survived a major conflict in the condition that many of these rare examples display.
I know for a fact that both my mint Berdan I as well as my mint Serb 78/80 Mauser, came out of the same pattern room collection. The Berdan I has no serial number at all, which indicates that it was never issued in the Russian Army and the Serb Mauser still retains it's matching serialized bayonet. Neither would possibly have survived in this condition had these been issue rifles. It still amazes me that there are as many unfired examples in Museum collections as there are, considering how long ago these rifles were produced and given the usual budgets granted to Govt. run Museums these days.
Jack, as far as issue during WWI, these carbines were produced in very small numbers and appear t have been scattered to the four winds long before WWI started. I am not familiar with any evidence what so ever to suggest that they were issued in any numbers during WWI. Had any examples been around, it is certainly possible, but there is no written or photographic evidence that I am aware of that would support this. I believe, like you, that most them most likely went to Mexico. This would explain why a period 98A bolt will occasionally turn up in Mexican weapon, like the matching example that Ned found for his excellent carbine.
Neat stuff guys! Beautiful photos John and nicely presented. Thanks for sharing these with us.
Warmest regards,
JPS
