French Beutewaffen Collection

[chrisftk]

Good afternoon everyone,

It was photographing a couple new acquisitions and it occurred to me that I had accumulated a decent collection of captured French weapons, spanning three different wars. I thought I'd share a group photo. Still plenty more variants out there.

Most of these have been previously documented here. The M34 was a new acquisition from a good friend.

From top to bottom:

Franco-Prussian War Captured:
1) Prussian Chassepot Carbine, marked to a Train unit and still in the original Chassepot needle-fire chambering.

2) Prussian Chassepot Aptiertes Carbine- reworked to chamber German 11mm. Marked to a machine gunner company.

3) Saxon M73 Chassepot rework. These were an extensive rework which featured a partial stock harkening back to older carbine designs.

WW1 Captured:
4) 1886/93 Lebel- German "Deutsches Reich" marked and reworked at the Rastatt Depot. Features a bayonet adaptor for use with an ersatz German bayonet.

WW2 Captured:
5) 1892/16 Berthier Carbine- LK5 marked with signs of German depot work (stacking hook ground off and German numbers on band)

6) M34 Berthier- LK5 Marked. Not sure about the pedigree of the canvas sling.

7) German assembled R35. Krakow marked on the stock.

8) MAS 36 - LK5 marked

 

[freudi]

Sehr schöne Sammlung. Ich liebe sowas.

 

[CLG]

Wonderful collection Chris, particularly like the Chassepots!

 

[Bigdibbs88]

You love that French booty

 

[joryfreeburg]

Really nice grouping of German used French weapons…..Makes for a sweet photo grouping…. Congratulations on putting group together

 

[biggymu]

Wonderful assortment Chris. Have you done a separate thread/picture spread on the R35? Kind of a strange bird. I would enjoy a more detailed look.
The photo is impressive to me in its own right as the detail is easily seen on each firearm and lighting very well done for such a large group. Did you use a tripod?

 

[chrisftk]

Really nice grouping of German used French weapons…..Makes for a sweet photo grouping…. Congratulations on putting group together

Thanks Jory, that M34 was a great addition, I'm grateful you let it go. The French did some weird things interwar.

Wonderful assortment Chris. Have you done a separate thread/picture spread on the R35? Kind of a strange bird. I would enjoy a more detailed look.
The photo is impressive to me in its own right as the detail is easily seen on each firearm and lighting very well done for such a large group. Did you use a tripod?

Thanks Rick-- here's the R35.

R35 Lebel Krakau-marked

Hi All, I picked this up at a recent auction. I've seen a few examples of these pop up over the years, but they seem to be a bit scarce. My understanding is that these were essentially parts guns that were either assembled or inspected at Krakau after France was conquered. I also believe these...

www.k98kforum.com

I use a couple of filtered photography lights and usually run through a photo software too in case there's any issues.

 

[Absolut]

Chris, sorry to somewhat kind of hijack your thread, but the title just perfectly fits what I recently saw and made my head scratch...

Attached pictures show a Lebel M1886 M93 rifle that got the inter war update to Balle N. The barrel shank carries modern German CIP proof marks (7 IF is coded for July 85; shield is Mellrichstadt, 8mm Lebel is the designation of the ammo), as well as the FWW retailer stamp of Frankonia Waffen Würzburg.

However, the biggest oddity I saw on the barrel shank was a large X. Does this indicate that this particular weapon was captured by the Russians (what somewhat would require first being captured by Germany in WWII, then re-issued on the Eastern Front, to be there captured by the Soviets)? Have you ever seen a WWII captured French rifle that carried a "capture stamp" by the Soviets?

 

[AndyB]

Have You detailed picture of prefixes used on the barell?, as it looks like MAT letters and not St.Etienne which means the rifle was a repair in time, X could be french :
Letter code X ... This letter was used on rifles rejected for service or live fire but used for instruction purposes only

 

[Absolut]

No.. these are the only three pictures I stole from the auction listing .

 

[Berthier]

6) M34 Berthier- LK5 Marked. Not sure about the pedigree of the canvas sling.

Wartime ersatz canvas slings are known, but they are really rare.

Have You detailed picture of prefixes used on the barell?, as it looks like MAT letters and not St.Etienne which means the rifle was a repair in time, X could be french :
Letter code X ... This letter was used on rifles rejected for service or live fire but used for instruction purposes only

That's not an X prefix training rifle. It wouldn't have gotten a regular serial number if it was a trainer.

 

[RyanE]

Very nice! The French did issue ersatz canvas slings, my Lebel came with one.

The X isn't Russian. I've seen it on French rifles (Lebels and Berts), but I've never seen a good explanation.

 

[Pat]

Outstanding collection! Thanks for sharing those with us.

 

[AndyB]

The X explanation is from well known collector of Gunboard Lebel1886 so why would be this not possible, the later WWF reproofing doesnt mean the piece is not usable but was preferred for training in his service life by French army? Trainer were not diverted from production but after outstanding life in service, had problem with tolerances in chamber by bolt or other and were reused for training. Similar pieces are DP by english rifles.Here we dont known is the bolt matching or not, same as we dont known is refurbishment by Tulle?
"any X mark means it was removed from service for one reason or another, it may be rejected, worn or bad part that can be used for training purposes." asnwer of Lebel1886 on Gunboard

 

[RyanE]

I did a little searching and another French collector kelt didn't seem to agree it was an "unserviceable" marking in this context.

"Until WWI, the weapons used for classroom handling were built out of rejected parts, they all had a X as prefix letter to their serial number, for the rifles a large X was also carved on the side of the stock and painted red for easy recognition.

The small x located on the barrel next to the steel supplier is too unconspicuous to be "not safe to shoot" warning."

I have no opinion either way, but it certainly could have been a mark indicating it was pulled from service for some reason.

 

[AndyB]

Personally i dont believe that russian would add X there on position near steel producer marking. Its mostly french origin, the significant of this, could be different as training offcoarse.