German Capture Mosin Nagant 91/30?

[GulagACapella]

Wanted to check in with the experts here on this one. Rifle is listed as a 91/30 Mosin that was captured by the Germans and delivered to Finland. Receiver is SA stamped, and the bolt is blued and numbered.

Is this just a Finn captured 91/30 with a blued bolt? Or was this numbering and bluing done by Germany? Any and all help is appreciated. Pics will be in a separate post.

 

[GulagACapella]

Pictures for review:

 

[Pisgah]

It looks like it may have a German force-matched bolt. What about the floorplate and the buttplate? Are either of them matching, and if so, can you post some photos? Any markings on the right of the butt stock?

 

[ugafx4]

These "blue bolt Finns" are generally accepted as being German depot 91/30s that were sold to the Finnish. The German 91/30s have 4 traits associated with them. 1. Blued bolt. 2. Pecuilar smaller font on bolt and generally the same font on the scrubbed buttplate and sometimes floorplate. 3. Polished rear sight ladder 4. Star marks on stock. An aside: there are also 91/30s with actual depot Kru1 eagle stamps. I think there are FLP luftwaffe marked ones as well but RyanE will have to speak to that.
I have seen very few with all 4 traits, they generally have 2 or 3 but always have blued bolts. Now, this rifle does not have star marks on the stock or the scrubbed buttplate or floorplate. I personally theorize the stock was replaced by the Finn's when they recieved the rifle due to their accuracy requirments. I have personally seen very few star marked stocks on these that have survived. So this is a German depot 91/30 that was sold to the Finns and may have had the stock replaced at some point. Hope this helps.

 

[GulagACapella]

It looks like it may have a German force-matched bolt. What about the floorplate and the buttplate? Are either of them matching, and if so, can you post some photos? Any markings on the right of the butt stock?

Floorplate and buttplate are not matching but I do have a picture of the butt stock (which appears to be a 1939 Tula cartouche):

 

[GulagACapella]

These "blue bolt Finns" are generally accepted as being German depot 91/30s that were sold to the Finnish. The German 91/30s have 4 traits associated with them. 1. Blued bolt. 2. Pecuilar smaller font on bolt and generally the same font on the scrubbed buttplate and sometimes floorplate. 3. Polished rear sight ladder 4. Star marks on stock. An aside: there are also 91/30s with actual depot Kru1 eagle stamps. I think there are FLP luftwaffe marked ones as well but RyanE will have to speak to that.
I have seen very few with all 4 traits, they generally have 2 or 3 but always have blued bolts. Now, this rifle does not have star marks on the stock or the scrubbed buttplate or floorplate. I personally theorize the stock was replaced by the Finn's when they recieved the rifle due to their accuracy requirments. I have personally seen very few star marked stocks on these that have survived. So this is a German depot 91/30 that was sold to the Finns and may have had the stock replaced at some point. Hope this helps.

This information is immensely helpful, thank you!

 

[Pat]

Any depot stamps on the bottom of the stock wrist? Those reported so far have been Kru 1 marked, otherwise they're as ugafx4 described. Here's my example:

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?15125-Ex-German-depot-Finnish-acquired-MN-91-30

GulagACapella, I like what I'm seeing with the numbers font on your blued bolt and the polished rear sight leaf. As Pisgah noted, the rest of the primary (receiver, bolt, floor plate, butt plate) components should match, otherwise this would be a rifle that the Finns canabalized and assembled into a functioning, battle ready weapon. I wrote an article for the Military Rifle Journal on this sub-species. If you're interested, I can look up the full citation for you.

The rifles/stocks with the particular 'stars' as noted are very murky but have been noted here and on Gunboards.com. There is a K98k or two floating around with them and I have a Dutch Model 1895 long rifle with these:

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?30999-Unknown-depot-marked-Dutch-Model-1895-Mannlicher

Cool legacy, congrats!
Pat

 

[AndyB]

KH G is mostly interepretation of the prefix letters for west market which is wrong as it should be "Ch G".1989 on bolt looks like new fonts.

 

[mrfarb]

In my view, its basically a barreled action in a different mismatched stock set. Its equivalent to having a matching depot build action in a byf44 stock with a bnz trigger guard.

 

[Pisgah]

KH G is mostly interepretation of the prefix letters for west market which is wrong as it should be "Ch G".1989 on bolt looks like new fonts.

Letters on the barrel shank are Cyrillic X and G. In the US, the Russian X is transliterated as "kh". The Cyrillic letter cha is tranliterated as "ch". However, there is no cha in this rifle's serial number. In other words, the importer did not make a mistake, "Kh" and "G" are correct for this rifle.

 

[GulagACapella]

In my view, its basically a barreled action in a different mismatched stock set. Its equivalent to having a matching depot build action in a byf44 stock with a bnz trigger guard.

Apt comparison given the lack of an visible German stock stampings. That stock could've been added yesterday for all we know. Guess my "no Mosin" rule remains in place ha.

 

[GulagACapella]

Any depot stamps on the bottom of the stock wrist? Those reported so far have been Kru 1 marked, otherwise they're as ugafx4 described. Here's my example:

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?15125-Ex-German-depot-Finnish-acquired-MN-91-30

GulagACapella, I like what I'm seeing with the numbers font on your blued bolt and the polished rear sight leaf. As Pisgah noted, the rest of the primary (receiver, bolt, floor plate, butt plate) components should match, otherwise this would be a rifle that the Finns canabalized and assembled into a functioning, battle ready weapon. I wrote an article for the Military Rifle Journal on this sub-species. If you're interested, I can look up the full citation for you.

The rifles/stocks with the particular 'stars' as noted are very murky but have been noted here and on Gunboards.com. There is a K98k or two floating around with them and I have a Dutch Model 1895 long rifle with these:

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?30999-Unknown-depot-marked-Dutch-Model-1895-Mannlicher

Cool legacy, congrats!
Pat

No visible depot markings on the wood. Looks like the rifle already sold. But, thanks to everyone else's input it didn't seem worth picking up anyway. I really wanted to break my "no Mosin" rule with this one, too.

 

[Pat]

There are quite a few of them out there with some or even most of the noted aspects (like Farb’s description), but it seems like very few with all of them.


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[RyanE]

These "blue bolt Finns" are generally accepted as being German depot 91/30s that were sold to the Finnish. The German 91/30s have 4 traits associated with them. 1. Blued bolt. 2. Pecuilar smaller font on bolt and generally the same font on the scrubbed buttplate and sometimes floorplate. 3. Polished rear sight ladder 4. Star marks on stock. An aside: there are also 91/30s with actual depot Kru1 eagle stamps. I think there are FLP luftwaffe marked ones as well but RyanE will have to speak to that.
I have seen very few with all 4 traits, they generally have 2 or 3 but always have blued bolts. Now, this rifle does not have star marks on the stock or the scrubbed buttplate or floorplate. I personally theorize the stock was replaced by the Finn's when they recieved the rifle due to their accuracy requirments. I have personally seen very few star marked stocks on these that have survived. So this is a German depot 91/30 that was sold to the Finns and may have had the stock replaced at some point. Hope this helps.

This is more or less correct. Observed depot stamps in the wood are either the two stars, Kru1, and sometimes both. I am not sold on this bolt being German, but the other parts don't match so probably not worth worrying about.

There are also Luftwaffe reworks done by the various Feldluftpark/Luftpark. FLP.Mi (Minsk) seems to be by far the most common followed by maybe FLP 1/I Riga. Some stamped the receivers/barrels (FLP Minsk, LP Illesheim), some used electropencil (FLP Riga, FLP Lemberg). There was also at least one LZa (Liegnitz) that reworked these but they are very scarce. There is also one odd ball stamped by an airfield HQ unit, Fl.H.Kdtr Deblin, that looks legit.

Floorplate and buttplate are not matching but I do have a picture of the butt stock (which appears to be a 1939 Tula cartouche):

Stock has the Izhevsk CCCP roundel, and the MA inspection dates it to 1939.