GI Bring Back

CHRYCO said:
For the most part this forum deals with military originality not bubba'd variations of any kind, no matter how good they are claimed to be.
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Thats the point every time such rifles comes up in this forum.
A better place for it would be the GGCA Forum or Nitroexpress, there you find fellows with knowledge of this kind rifles, there history and technic.

Anyway, i dont wanted to start any discussion, i just wanted to help the starter and owner of this nice Schork Stutzen.
 
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Mikegermany said:
Thats the point every time such rifles comes up in this forum.
A better place for it would be the GGCA Forum or Nitroexpress, there you find fellows with knowledge of this kind rifles, there history and technic.

Anyway, i dont wanted to start any discussion, i just wanted to help the starter and owner of this nice Schork Stutzen.
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A refinished rifle is exactly that… “refinished” and that kills historical and collector value. That’s the bottom line.
 
If you mean, no doubt.

The bottomline ist the condition know, the worth now and the worth after an correct restauration, always in front that this is an prewar hunting rifle and not any military timepiece.
 
Meh, my worthless $0.02...I think Mikegermany has a point...I think the world of sporting rifles is different than the world of military rifles. I you had a fine, say, Holland and Holland double, that was poorly stored and suffered from such...andyou had the choice of leaving it as is or having Holland and Holland refinish it? I am guessing it would be more valuable in the long run to have the Holland and Holland refinished gun, than a finish bare and rusty not restored gun...

BUT the caveat is it would essentially have to be a Holland and Holland job, not some bubba gunsmith who just graduated from SDI...

IF you could find a true old world gunsmith, who could work his magic on this gun, I think it would come out amazing...but it would absolutely have to be the right guy. And it wouldn't be cheap, but I am betting the results would be spectacular...think along the lines of a Turnbull restoration.

The reality is, there is no "Blue Book" on these custom one off's, and I think you have to treat each one on its own merits and condition, and what one, as the owner, wants out of it.

Regardless it surely is a neat and interesting rifle, and it is cool to see it...

ETA I also agree, it might have been a nickel or just polished in the white finish that was stored poorly post war and not taken care of, look at the beautiful contrast of the finely blued floorplate and the rest of the trigger guard. Don't forget WWI and before receivers and bolts on their military guns were in the white, so wouldn't surprise me to see this in custom commercial guns. Possibly it only needs a careful and expertly done re-polish...but again, if it were mine, I'd be doing much more research and have some real experts look at it in hand to give an opinion and go from there.

And I really wish some of you guys would take your purse swinging about the morality of actions in war to a separate thread rather than shitting in this one.

Clay, interesting line of thinking on the caliber, Europe certainly had a lit of oddball civilian hunting calibers floating around, it would be interesting to research this aspect more too...
 
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There will always be an argument between the “leave it alone guys” and the “restoration” guys. Some people just can’t stand rust, tarnish (patina), scratches, dents, stains and wear and tear. Others cannot stand the thought of restoring an item, be it a medal, badge, uniform, helmet, rifle or bayonet. Even Museums restore some items but leave others alone. It is a matter of personal choice.
 
Only my point of view:
This rifle is definitely not in the origin condition, "in the white" was nothing to sell in this times. Sometimes the system was only matte polished, but never barrel and system in combination with blued floorplates.
Also an nickelfinish is nothing you see at hunting rifles of this time in germany.
I am absolutely no friend of restoring if the substance is origin and ok, but from time to time you find pieces that can only win from an restauration.
If you take an look at my homepage you see that i am always prefer conservation and not restauration if it makes sense.

But- it is not mine rifle, so everyone can do with it what he wants.

The caliber is well known in germany at this time for hunting purposes, but i think it makes no sence to discuss this deeper.

A lot more interesting would bee to see the proof marks pp.......
 
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Mikegermany said:
Only my point of view:
This rifle is definitely not in the origin condition, "in the white" was nothing to sell in this times. Sometimes the system was only matte polished, but never barrel and system in combination with blued floorplates.
Also an nickelfinish is nothing you see at hunting rifles of this time in germany.
I am absolutely no friend of restoring if the substance is origin and ok, but from time to time you find pieces that can only win from an restauration.
If you take an look at my homepage you see that i am always prefer conservation and not restauration if it makes sense.

But- it is not mine rifle, so everyone can do with it what he wants.

The caliber is well known in germany at this time for hunting purposes, but i think it makes no sence to discuss this deeper.

A lot more interesting would bee to see the proof marks pp.......
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Mike,

Take a second look at the rifle. In my opinion it is in original condition. The gun is in the white, no proof marks, I’m willing to be wrong, but I bet the barrel is blank. This rifle is in its unfinished state as it was “captured”. I’ve heard the countess story more times than there are countess in Germany. I only know of one example, documented, proven, of a person BUYING a collection from a countess. It was that or surrender them for destruction.

This gun, in my opinion, was looted from the shop of the gunmaker who built it. It was finished in the white ready for proofing.
 
I would have to agree, I would bet on simply a barrel maker or blank supplier being on the bottom of that barrel.

Mike,
Just another example, I have a Schüler that must have sat on a shelf half finished as the serial is commensurate with at least three other Schülers from 1942. However the rifle has zero proof marks, simply caliber and maker, but in its case, it was completed and blued, my presumption is in 1945 after the capture of Suhl.
 
Gerst said:
Are we saying the rifle and the story are both fake?
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I don't see anyone who said either of those things...if you read the OP, he said he bought it from the estate of coworkers father, his story it was taken from a castle...he showed it to a German neighbor who said it looked like a gun a Count would own...stories are stories, just that, this is already third hand, things get garbled over 80 years, thus the saying buy the rifle, not the story.

Being conjectured here by guys far more learned than me in German sporting arms it could be likely this was in a gun shop/gunmakers shop/armory of some sort, assembled, not fully finished (blued) or proofed, and possibly grabbed off the rack because it was a cool looking gun to bring home...lots of conjecture, but it doesn't change what it is...

I dig the forend cap...I think its just part of the motif, with stag horn Butt plate, grip cap, and funky forend cap to match.
 
pzjgr said:
I don't see anyone who said either of those things...if you read the OP, he said he bought it from the estate of coworkers father, his story it was taken from a castle...he showed it to a German neighbor who said it looked like a gun a Count would own...stories are stories, just that, this is already third hand, things get garbled over 80 years, thus the saying buy the rifle, not the story.

Being conjectured here by guys far more learned than me in German sporting arms it could be likely this was in a gun shop/gunmakers shop/armory of some sort, assembled, not fully finished (blued) or proofed, and possibly grabbed off the rack because it was a cool looking gun to bring home...lots of conjecture, but it doesn't change what it is...

I dig the forend cap...I think its just part of the motif, with stag horn Butt plate, grip cap, and funky forend cap to match.
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The OP also does not state if the person acquired the weapon before or after the end of the war. He only wrote that the person that did bring the weapon back stayed a year in Germany for the occupation.
 
Took me quite some time to notice that this rifle is a solid side wall receiver atop. I'd really highly appreciate if @md66948 would find the time to carefully remove the stock and check whether the barrel has any markings on the underside.

Personally I feel the rifle was not finished yet. If I was to guess, it was supposed to go to engraving for being in the white, only needed to be proofed prior to that. The metal parts to me all look unfinished, and it would be highly unusual to leave everything perfectly in the white, but not for the magazine floorplate. Another clue for this IMHO are the screw heads to be found in the horn parts - they do not fit the rifle and not what I would expect with a Schork work. IMHO those are placeholders/to be engraved to fit to the rifle.

Anyway, if it was my rifle I'd carefully disassemble it, then clean off the surface rust, and then put it back together. And make sure to also install the screw for the front of the barrel, since as obvious the barrel front end is not connected to the stock (maybe the soldered on contra nut is loose?).
 
I would be surprised if this is an original Mauser solid wall, as it lacks a certain portion of the forging that most or all(?) appear to have.
 
I didn't claim it to be an original Mauser made receiver, just pointing out that it is a solid side wall.

A very similar rifle made by Schurk/Schork can be found here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Mauser/comments/1h6yail/mauser
. That one though seems to be finished, with scope bases, blued, and no solid side wall receiver. Note the obvious firing proof stamps on the receiver which are lacking on the rifle of the OP.
 
No, I didn’t mean to insinuate you said that, in previous discussions it was considered.
 
Absolut said:
I didn't claim it to be an original Mauser made receiver, just pointing out that it is a solid side wall.

A very similar rifle made by Schurk/Schork can be found here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Mauser/comments/1h6yail/mauser
. That one though seems to be finished, with scope bases, blued, and no solid side wall receiver. Note the obvious firing proof stamps on the receiver which are lacking on the rifle of the OP.
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Damn near the exact same gun! Mauser bottom metal, very similar barrel and stock.

I had to whack myself in the forehead. Of course, 257 Roberts. DUH! I feel like an idiot for letting that one slip by.
 
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