I think I solved the Kü mystery

I'm very confident in my theory, I'm going to spend some time collecting information about LZA Küpper from local sources if possible. I would love to have documentation to back it up, but there is very little documentation available about the LZA organization. But, you know somewhere there is a book in German on the subject, finding it will be the chore.
 
There is very likely a local historian who knows something pertinent but since Küpper is now in Poland finding such may be a problem.
 
WaPrüf2 said:
I think one of the reasons for collector tunnel vision is it is simply easier to (over)specialize than to adopt (or adapt to) what I call a cross-disciplinary approach.
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Well said. I've learned far more with a cross disciplinary approach than focusing on the butt of the lemming in front of me.
 
WaPrüf2 said:
The idea will have to migrate to the Luger forum and then into the NAPCA Forum and it will take some time to be accepted and even then it probably won't be generally accepted until it makes its way into hardcopy form.
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BY the time all of that happens Farb will have to accept his award posthumously...:>(
 
Reworked pistols are a rarity because they weren't used much. Not much broke that needed a depot level repair. The same was not true of K98ks. The axis pistol collectors never had a real need to understand and study the HZa system as we do. Accordingly, it would appear that they approached the issue from the wrong direction and premise. The truth is usually less sexy than the imagination. The same can be said of our end of the hobby and we have benefitted (I know I have!) from axis pistol information and research. As the LCN saying goes, "one hand washes the other." ;)
 
Well, after some deep thought, I think what Kü Lugers need is..... Hamfacts, Provenance through Majic. We've cracked the code!
 
What's interesting is that the Luger collector premise that these were Krieghoff produced/assembled tainted the understanding of the LZa inspection markings. Back in the day it was surmised that the K98ks with LZa 2 and 4 were "Krieghoff produced". Krieghoff has nothing to do with it IMHO. These inspections show rework/rebuild at a LZa depot facility, not any connection with "Krieghoff". These P.08s don't have an LZa number because the Ku shows what LZa assembled them.
 
Very well done Farb. The Axis Pistols guys at Jan Stills site appreciate it and are on board. It's logic. No need for a HamFacts COA on this one :happy0180:
 
Maybe an armorer?



226.jpg





Soldier: number 3

Label: Werftabt. (a) 54/III Sagan-Kupper

Unit: Werft Abteilung (ortsgebunden) 54/III/Fliegerhorst Sagan-Kupper

Classification: WL-Luftwaffe

Found: Děčín


Werft Abteilung (ortsgebunden) 54/III/Fliegerhorst Sagan-Kupper

repair section (stationary) 54/III/airport Sagan-Kupper
 
KU findings

Mike , Do you think Don and Joop will take this and fill in some of the other blanks? I have a pistol that exceeds the 6000 # mark but is not LZA marked. There are quite a few variations in the KU world. With a correct starting point it may be possible to turn up some documents.
 
I'm not sure what they will do. Honestly, I'm kinda up to my neck doing this last 98k book- if nobody has done anything after I'm done, I'll see what I can do to further it. I have contacted a local guy that runs a museum, he's going to ask around to see what he can find. The biggest issue is most of the documents from that airbase were probably destroyed/captured by the Russians and are gone forever.
 
Sagan-Küpper today is Zagan-Tomaszowo.
The airfield is still there.
https://www.google.de/maps/place/To...2!3m1!1s0x4708a617c5a34127:0xad90f36a17244fe7

Some files and war diaries concerning Luftwaffe supply and logistics survived, but nothing about LZA 1/IV Küppers.

Did a quick search through our Federal Archive:

Luftzeugamt 1/III - Finow: Juni 1941-November 1942 (5 AE)
Luftzeugamt 1/VII - Erding: August 1939-November 1940 (2 AE), sonstige Unterlagen (4 AE)
Luftzeugamt 2/XI (See) - Travemünde: August 1939-März 1940 (1 AE)
Luftzeugamt 2/VI - Gosselies, Warschau, Kiew: Dezember 1940-Januar 1944 (13 AE)

Luftzeugämter 1/IV in Kölleda mit 17 AE (1943-1944)

Looks like LZA 1/IV was relocated to Kölleda in 1943.
 
Very cool information! Don't want to overstate this, but you may be on to something here with far-reaching consequence. Dunno about you all, but I sure would read a book on wartime (mis)management of arms production in Germany. If only among Mausers, it's a temporary anomaly of wartime pressure among a handful of plants. But observed across the industry...
 
Perhaps one day someone will find something, but I'm 99% sure that these Lugers were made there under the same circumstances as the depot built K98k rifles, and most likely around the same time if not the exact same time. Thanks for checking the Federal archives Wolfgang!
 
BerlinerLuebecker said:
Very cool information! Don't want to overstate this, but you may be on to something here with far-reaching consequence. Dunno about you all, but I sure would read a book on wartime (mis)management of arms production in Germany. If only among Mausers, it's a temporary anomaly of wartime pressure among a handful of plants. But observed across the industry...
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I have one of those strategic bombing survey books that covers the German war economy. There is a great anecdote in there. During the war the allies estimated how many machine tools the Germans had, like lathes, mills etc. When the war ended, the allies discovered that the Germans had twice as many tools as they expected. How could this be? The allies assumed that the Germans had the sense to run their machines 24 hours a day, just like they themselves with done. In reality, the machines almost never saw more than 12 hours of use. It was like the Germans were throwing away production capacity. Combine this with a three or four year apprentice program for machinist, and you simply can't make anything in volume.
 
nirvana said:
I have one of those strategic bombing survey books that covers the German war economy. There is a great anecdote in there. During the war the allies estimated how many machine tools the Germans had, like lathes, mills etc. When the war ended, the allies discovered that the Germans had twice as many tools as they expected. How could this be? The allies assumed that the Germans had the sense to run their machines 24 hours a day, just like they themselves with done. In reality, the machines almost never saw more than 12 hours of use. It was like the Germans were throwing away production capacity. Combine this with a three or four year apprentice program for machinist, and you simply can't make anything in volume.
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They probably had a real shortage of skilled machine operators, also. Slave labor is passable for mining coal, digging ditches, etc., but lathe operators have to know what they're doing.(and want to do it right)
 
KU Location

I can see where 12 hours on a machine day in and out would get very old. They would have to be some sort of robot if they were not tired of War in general. The pictures I have seen of their factories had machines all lined up for all the different operations and I'm pretty sure the most skilled people were set up men and the less skilled were trained to do certain operations. Production work then must have been on ledgers to keep everything aligned quota wise to where you didn't have to much of one thing and not enough of another. When Farb gets through with his current book he should write one titled German Depot's
 
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