Third Party Press

I think I solved the Kü mystery

When Gustloff was working on the Gustloff 7,65 pistol (and presumably other arms as well) at their Buchenwald plant they rented skilled machinists from the camp population from the SS at twice the rate the SS rented out unskilled labor. The prisoners of course dogged it; for interesting account of inept management see: THE BUCHENWALD REPORT, passim.
 
Ok, not much to report from Küpper yet, but came across a document from Mauser that might show the importance of the LZA Küpper in regards to small arms and how important this LZA was to the Luftwaffe. We know that Mauser manufactured K98k rifles for the Luftwaffe, under contract, and these rifles were marked with the Eagle L on the right side of the stock. Luftwaffe contracts start as early as 1937 so by 1941 not uncommon to see Eagle L marked Luftwaffe rifles in use. However, most don't know how these rifles were distributed - weapons makers shipped completed weapons to army Equipment depots, and these depots distributed the rifles to the appropriate end users. For a facility to receive new rifles from a factory surely illustrates the importance of that facility to the small arms of the specific branch (in this case the Luftwaffe).

I give you a contract, from Mauser, whereby 10,000 rifles per month were to be delivered to Luftzeugamt Küpper bei Sagen (these would be byf41 Eagle L marked K98k rifles). This document actually states that the first months supply (March) is incomplete, but will be filled in April. The document also states regular deliveries of 10,000 rifles to LZA Küpper bei Sagen according to the contract (contract number is 2-Va-161-011/41 Luft, with the 41 being the year the contract was made). We don't have the actual contract and don't know how many in total were sent there, but this illustrates very well how big of a facility that this was and it's importance. Rifles were delivered by train to the spur track at the airport there. Something neat, if you use Google Earth and search for Zagan, Poland you can find the airfield. You can actually see the railroad tracks still there, unused but visible, backing into the large part of the complex that is still standing at the airfield.
 

Attachments

  • auftrag_küpper.jpg
    auftrag_küpper.jpg
    234.2 KB · Views: 61
It makes significant sense that a large distribution depot/facility like that was chosen by the Luftwaffe due to its capabilities and location relative to other points of Luftwaffe distribution and supply. Thus it would also make significant sense, and be efficient, to have build/rebuild/repair capacity at that very same facility. The same was true then as it is today: the fewer times you have to handle something in the supply line, the cheaper and more efficient it is to manufacture and deliver it. Great info.
 
Current thread

Yep, we like to keep things in a vacuum here and "not give the farm away."
Another big thank you to Jon Speed who is one of the biggest proponents of
getting this material out for all to see.

Mike and I got numerous copies of original orders one of which is shown here.

I would like to think that the 'e' and 'ee' block of Luft assembled K98ks were assembled at Kupper.
I compare the Luft depot there with the main Army depot at Berlin Spandau.

Mike and I are still debating my unsettled assumption.
 
The issue with the LZA4 marked depot builds is what does the 4 signify? I've also seen LZA2 repairs too.

The Küpper depot was numbered Luftzeugamt 1/VI (1943-45) (Bezirk 1?) and if the K98k builds were done there would they not use the Kü prefix/suffix there too on rifles?

My feeling is these P.08 depot builds were done in the 41/42 timeframe, and by 42 I mean done with by early 42. Why? No 42 date frames are seen. It's much like the depot build 98k's, the majority are 41 date receivers.

Where was Bezirk 4 for the Luftwaffe? Austria, that's where. Surely the number indicates the Bezirk? It only makes sense.

attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • map.jpg
    map.jpg
    117.1 KB · Views: 149
What exaclty is the "bezirk" in this case?

By the way, I found some images of an interesting manual from 1944, "Zuständigkeit der Luftzeugämter für fliegendes Gerät". Fully translated by the British, it apparently include which depots were responsible for which parts. Granted it appears to be for aircraft equipment (parts for the Me-262 were the responsibility of LZa 1/VII in Erding for example), but I wonder if it might contain artillery and small arms also? Would be interesting to read in any case.
 

Attachments

  • lza flieger.jpg
    lza flieger.jpg
    25.4 KB · Views: 26
  • lza flieger 2.jpg
    lza flieger 2.jpg
    43.3 KB · Views: 32
The Bezirk are on the map that I posted, in Latin numbers. Basically looks like4 of them.

That book you found looks interesting but it shows the difficulty in researching this- small arms were of little or no concern to allied armies intelligence gathering. They wanted to know about jets and chemical research.
 
The Bezirk are on the map that I posted, in Latin numbers. Basically looks like 4 of them.

The legend on the full map says the black squares with latin numbers are the headquarters of the four Luftflotte that existed in 1939 (which makes sense as they all match up with the map). Thus my confusion.
 

Attachments

  • map luft.jpg
    map luft.jpg
    94.7 KB · Views: 27
This has been debated for many years, probably decades, and until now nothing plausible has been connected to any document. Many of the theories were boarding on the ridiculous, but now I think Mike has discovered the meaning. When Mike first started this thread I was unconvinced, I didn't think he had (yet) proven this adequately for it to be adopted, - while a Luftgau ordnance depot (LZa) was suspected, I had assumed it would be in Luftgau IV (Saxony-Thüringen), as that made the most sense with observed rifles (many, most, of the Luftamt builds are LZa/4) and the facts about the area being well known for such work. But it seems near certain that Mike has discovered the most likely site and scenario.

P08/Luger collectors have long held the field in advanced research, however I think they will have to move over a little and admit that Mike Steves, a rifle collector, has achieved what they haven't been able to do in at least two decades.

BTW, it looks like it is at least possible that many collectors were wrong about Robert Jensen on this as well, when Bob Jensen assumed the Ku at the wrist of a number of 98k was connected the the Kü P08 (KCN/1992, Backbone, where he clearly identified its purpose as an ordnance stamp, being next to two other known variations, page 86 if your interested), many seemed unconvinced, some thought it a fraud, another made up variation in Backbone, however this theory also supports Jensen's theory. At the very least it gives it some credibility, believably, - just too bad we can't see the full rifle, Law should have devoted a page to the rifle, assuming it was a complete matching rifle (which is probably not the case, as Backbone rifles are showing up on the auction sites, it is becoming clear many were not original-matching rifles...)
 
District boundaries

Those district boundaries and designations match up with my 1940 Wehrkreise map.
 
Does anyone know or have a relationship with any of the guys in that picture:

Otto Repa (Waffenkonstrukteur, Oberndorf), Gerd Schön (Mitarbeiter im Museum), Rudolf Modenbach (Waffensammler, Butzbach), Rolf Gminder (ehemaliges Vorstandsmitglied bei Mauser und HK), Georg Egeler (Büchsenmachermeister), Mauro Baudino (Fachautor zur Mauser-Geschichte), Gerben van Vlimmeren (Fachautor zur Mauser-Geschichte) und Mark Ericson (Fachautor und Filmemacher zur Mauser-Geschichte)


If so, Mike if you could get hooked up with them to discuss your findings, it sure would be interesting.
 

Military Rifle Journal
Back
Top