Identify my grandfather's rifle

[griswold56]

My grandfathers rifle has been passed down to me and I would like to positively identify it with some help. I know he served in WWI in France and brought the gun back from the war. As far as I can tell all the numbers match. As best I know the gun has been in storage since 1965 and is all original. To be fair to my brothers what would a gun like this be worth on the market.

Thanks in advance for any help.

TOP
Imperial Crown
Erfurt 1907

Side
German Eagle
629
Kar 98.

Bolt
629

Floor Plate
29

 

[RyanE]

Without pictures its impossible to tell you value, as there can be lots of things wrong with it.

That said, it sounds like you have Kar98 (or sometimes K98a), a WWI era German Mauser carbine made at Erfurt in 1907. Probably not a common year for them. Here is one posted just a few days ago: http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?19471-1915-Erfurt-K98a

Can you post pictures?

 

[Loewe]

Indeed, if it is a Kar.98a then it would be a rare rifle if in original-matching condition... 1907 was the first year and they are not common.

Pictures are required as Ryan stated.

Without pictures its impossible to tell you value, as there can be lots of things wrong with it.

That said, it sounds like you have Kar98 (or sometimes K98a), a WWI era German Mauser carbine made at Erfurt in 1907. Probably not a common year for them.

 

[griswold56]

First try at Photos

First try at photos

 

[KKW22cal]

I would take a clear picture of every proof mark and serial number on the rifle, on the metal and the wood. What I see so far looks nice though I can't see the numbers on the floor plate/trigger guard area. I am not the expert but I like to look at the pictures. The knowledgeble will be able to give better information with additional detail.

 

[griswold56]

These are all the rest of the markings I could find.

Wish I were a better photographer

 

[Loewe]

As do I; though you did well enough to say you have a very valuable rifle. Only two others are known, yours is the best condition so far as I can determine. Yours is also the highest serial number...

Try and do a clear picture of the right side of the receiver. Any markings on the buttplate, top tang along the top and the face of it, there should be a serial number at least, but maybe depot markings, maybe a unit marking. These things would be important to value (the right unit can help value immensely). As would the barrel, but odds are the barrel is original and to examine the barrel is complicated and would be more risk than reward.

From what you show, i would venture a guess that it is original, and that depending how fair you want to be with your siblings it will cost you quite a bit to keep it (assuming you are trying to determine value to compensate the others...). An exacting value is impossible, not only are the photos too poor, but the larger challenge is none have ever been sold at auction before, even 1908's are rarely sold, especially this nice...

Wish I were a better photographer

 

[nirvana]

Whatever you do, DON'T CLEAN THE GUN. I like it, and as others have said, its a nice example.

 

[griswold56]

Some more photos

I am trying to arrive at a value that my brothers and I agree is fair market value. One of us will buy the others out. I found a few more marking on the butt plate and took some better pictures of others. Thanks for all the help in identifying the rifle.

 

[Loewe]

Did you look at the buttplate closely, usually these have unit markings. If it is a good one it can make $100's worth of difference.

While the kar.98a is less desirable, have less of a following, than the Gewehr98's, this rifle would be considered to be about as rare as they come; there are many low production Kar.98a, but this one is by far the lowest, nothing close, and it is the first year and only Erfurt made them in 1907. It would be worth thousands in my opinion, if i had thousands, I would pay that for it, assuming everything is as it appears to be. It is probably close to unique, it has the condition (I think it is factory original, or at least so far as you show, and that is the standard), it has the rarity (Kar.98a do not get rarer) and I know of no others being sold before. It would be the key, or centerpiece, to a kar.98a collection.

I would say $2000 is rock bottom value, I think most would agree due to its rarity and condition it is worth at least a couple thousand,even without more pictures; it could be worth twice that, or more, and probably is, but you would have to do better pictures or someone would have to see it. A similar rarity in a more popular rifle variation, say a Gewehr98, Kar.98b or Kar.98k would be worth many times this, but the kar.98a doesn't have the allure that the Gewehr98 or kar.98k have, - I doubt there is a finer example that survived, and any 1907 or 1908 is rare (real rare, not elusive or scarce "rare", which is usually how the word is used describing rifles... this rifle is actually rare.). Only a handful of Erfurt/1908's are known, most are seriously screwed up or in Germany.

Be sure to thoroughly look the buttpalte over, it might have a really valuable unit marking, most early 98a do...

I am trying to arrive at a value that my brothers and I agree is fair market value. One of us will buy the others out. I found a few more marking on the butt plate and took some better pictures of others. Thanks for all the help in identifying the rifle.

 

[Warrior1354]

If this helps I saw a really nice all matching 1914 K98a for sale at a gunshow a couple months back for $1600. But being yours is 1907 carbine which I have never heard of one for sale before especially one like yours that is this nice either. You could almost name your own price for the piece. For one they do not come up for sale and I bet if one like this came up for sale at a big collector type auction it would go for crazy money. And to give you another idea look at my 1915 K98a I posted on here that is an all matching example too. That is really rare to find alone. But an 1907 K98a in that condition plus being all matching is impossible to find. Honestly I keep thinking about and its so hard to but a price on this piece like I said it seems almost priceless IMO.

 

[griswold56]

Butt Plate marking.

I have taken a close look at the butt plate and there is only one small mark besides the serial number. It is above the screw and looks like a X with little arms. If you zoom the image you can just make it out. Does anyone know a reputable dealer in Dallas that could evaluate the rifle. I do not want to take advantage of my brothers.

 

[ugafx4]

You are talking to very literally the most foremost experts on these rifles right here on this forum. The very solid majority of dealers would have no idea what this rifle is. Pisgah and Lowe ARE the experts on this rifle. You are getting very reasonable numbers here and there is no reason for your brothers to be upset by this valuation.

A wise dealer would come here for answers.

 

[Loewe]

I know of no dealer that knows anything about German rifles, Imperial, inter-war or "nazi"; - at least not a store front. There is an Illinois dealer that is extremely knowledgeable on all German military rifles, but I doubt he does appraisals. He is a buyer-seller.

There are some collectors in your area, I think Dave is in your area, Mike is outside of Houston, Bob is in Austin, - i am sure there are several others. Although they are not specialists on Imperial rifles they could give you assurances to originality and that is all you need. It is not difficult to tell good from shinola.

Yet you still have the problem of establishing value against no precedent. No 1907 has ever been sold before, to my knowledge (and I track such things for the last 15+ years); the closest I could find was Ambrose Selker's Erfurt/1908, a rare maker date, about 3 times more common than a 1907, it sold a few years back at Amoskeag, but i did not save an end price and his rifle was not as nice as yours seems to be... sure isn't as rare either.

Cheating your brothers is impossible if you share the same information and all reach an equitable agreement to price, if it is original-matching, no problems, which it seems it is, it is probably worth several thousand, but finding a buyer might be difficult. Many would probably buy it for $2k, its potential is double that probably, but you would have to find a buyer interested that has the money. I would say meet in the middle, $3k and i can't see how they could feel cheated.. or talk it over. My brother would give me $100 and tell me I got the better of the deal...

Does anyone know a reputable dealer in Dallas that could evaluate the rifle. I do not want to take advantage of my brothers.

 

[Loewe]

Perhaps others can offer their views, give it a few days, - there are others that know as much as I do, some that are active buyers, they may have a better grasp on its value in today's market.

 

[alund]

by chance, did your grandfather happen to have any pictures of himself with the rifle (circa the war)??

 

[griswold56]

Pictures of my Grandfather

Yes. Here is a picture of him in 1942 going to a Legionnaire Reunion with the rifle. There are others taken right after the war that are with my cousin's. There is a bayonet in the picture, but, I have no idea where it has gone. Other cousin's have the uniform, helmut and cape.

 

[alund]

Yes. Here is a picture of him in 1942 going to a Legionnaire Reunion with the rifle. There are others taken right after the war that are with my cousin's. There is a bayonet in the picture, but, I have no idea where it has gone. Other cousin's have the uniform, helmut and cape.

I would love to buy it but....If that was my grandfather and the family rifle... I am not sure I would/could/should part with it, regardless of what someone offered me. You have too much history involved in it. Thats an absolutely beautiful piece of history for the forum and yourself. good luck.

 

[Warrior1354]

Agree 100% to that. A piece like this needs to remain in your family for generations to come. Its a family treasure and a heirloom that can not be replaced. And for you too have a picture of your grandfather with it is all the more reasons to keep it in the family. I'm just happy you shared the piece with the forum.

 

[Spartaner545]

I strongly agree with alund and Warrior1354. If you and your brother don't need the money desperately i would keep the gun.
Such a rare carbine and with the family history and the lovely.

Plus the price of this piece will be the same or most likely much higher in a few years. I don't know about the market in the USA but here in Europe the prices of pre WW1 imperial rifles and carbines are going higher and higher every year.

With kind regards

Vincent