K98 sniper accuracy

[mjohansson]

Hello all, I just "won" a Zeiss Zielsechs, and I don't want to count my chickens before they hatch, but if all goes well with the mounting what kind of accuracy should I expect withe this rifle?
I read in the Sniper Variations book that the German K98 was NOT able to do as well as the Russian snipers at 300 meters to hit a head sized object....bummer...I was hoping for a little better that that!
No I know a lot depends on rifle condition, consistency of handload, bullet weight, all kinds of factors, so in general how accurate are some of you guys's German sniper rifles, whether they be replicas or not?

 

[agalland]

I want to disagree with the assertion that a k98 couldnt hit a head sized object @ 300 yds. Perhaps the avg is lower but certainly attainable

We are talking about a 6-8 inch target which would be easily doable with an accurate K98...not so reliably with the K43.

As for the 300 yd number ...I have read(somewhere) that the German Sniper was instructed to sight in @ 300 (meters) and compensate for closer or farther shoots..fiddling with scope setting was highly discouraged.
Dont ask me for my sources because I couldnt tell you if I had to...it was something I came across while reading up on german sniper training.

I have (3) repops and (2) authenic lesser examples under restoration that i have yet to shoot and i have banged the 300 hundred yd gong on a faily regular basis...that is my experience others may say differently.

 

[mike radford]

Select a really good rifle, that you have tested with good ammo. Best is one that has been drilled, refinished, etc. to not mess up an original IMO. An RC is probably OK in some folks opinion and not in others.

I have shot quite a few originals and even more replicas. I typically use only M75 sniper ammo. Fairly often I fire one group with 1939 German SSP for comparison sake. I have yet for it to be as good in anything as M75. Most 5 shot groups at 100 yds are in the 1.5-2 inch range. Having a ragged hole for 4 of 5 shots happens pretty often but a flyer usually happens, if not 2.

First time out with a HT replica that Vaugh99 so skillfully put together on a slightly bubbaed bcd4 RC. I knew the rifle was a good one with beautiful bore and from testing. First group was 1.4, second 1.5 or 1.6 inches(see pictures which are more accurate measurement). Note, first shot was left and covered with tape. I fired a group, the first group. Then I guessed at windage adjustment and the first how was in the 1 inch center and the next was near touching. Man was I happy. After heating up it was closer to twice that as the stock is not properly fitted.

Ignore the restored LSR with incorrect scope, wrong picture and I could not figure out how to remove it.

 

[bjarne]

..............................

6 shots used 3 to zero the scope aiming at right low corner

Ammo S&B 8.57

300 meters (328,08399 yard)

 

[mike radford]

6 shots used 3 to zero the scope aiming at right low corner

Ammo S&B 8.57

300 meters (328,08399 yard)

Now that is sweet, and rare. Most heavy barreled match rifles will not do that.

I had really good results with the S&B in the blue box with black letters. I have not seen if for sale in the US for 10 years.

 

[Hercules]

Target

I shot my original BCD 4 receivered CE 44 LSR once to sight it in at 100 yards. This is the target. The ammo was 8mm reloads made by me. I hope this helps.

 

[mike radford]

I shot my original BCD 4 receivered CE 44 LSR once to sight it in at 100 yards. This is the target. The ammo was 8mm reloads made by me. I hope this helps.

Super nice shooting Brian and that is about as good as most of these rifles will do. Love those JPS LSRs. Nearly bought another but the guy I met at SOS jerked me around so much I got really uncomfortable. The one I accidently posted in the earlier thread is a restored JPS in the W block. I restored it to have an original sniper to shoot. The mount I used was a bit less than tight and was shooting more like 2.5-3 MOA. I now have a tighter mount.

Thanks for posting.

In general, in my experience of shooting about 75 WW2 era snipers, is that they are all pretty accurate with good ammo. On average, most good ones will shoot about 1.5-2 MOA. I have had a bunch of sub-MOA groups, mostly with Mosins because I have shot at least 40, but it is not the norm.. Smallest group was 0.4 inches for 5 shots at 100 yds off a rest with a restored 1942 Izhevsk PEM. Doubt that will happen again and some luck was likely involved.

On the head shots at 300 yds, someone proposed a test on gunboards. Of course about everyone was using a PU, me included. I rarely have a 300 yd range, once or twice per year, and using a head shaped target I could get about 80% and a few were glancing hits, which would probably put them out of action but not dead. Anyone who could get head shots consistently with a WW2 sniper at more than 300 yds had an unusually good rifle, ammo and skill IMO, not to mention a touch of luck. I did try a 1903A4 at about the same time and a 8X Unertl 1903 USMC. I had less luck with them than the PU, which was a hand selected PU of known accuracy.

 

[mjohansson]

k98 sniper

Wow, better then I expected! I hope the Zeiss Zielsechechs I just "won" will be a nice one! I have an RC that I may use don't know yet, as when I posted some picks of it on Gunboards forum I caught hell for wanting to "mess up a nice 27 code. Oh well maybe I'll see if I can find a nice 43 byf at the local gunshow.
I have the repro HT mounts, and now I will need the top dial range indicator? who makes that, I have seen one before but I forget who sell those now. what about the rubber eye cups, or the sunshade?
Thanks, and God bless.
mike

 

[8x57mauser]

My bcd 45 LSR will hold its own well past 300 meters with my hand loads

100 meters



Same gun, same ammo, same day, 650 meters (top right red&white target)


Rifle is currently wearing a 1920s 4.5x Gerard model C scope.


My 91/30 PU, does ok using russian match ammo, but at 400 meters it groups the same as the 98k does at 650. It struggles to get decent groups with its 3.5x scope.


All that said, with both rifles, i can regularly hit a man sized silhouette target at 800-1000 meters with little difficulty if I aim center mass. But i give the edge to the 98k with its vastly better trigger.

 

[Ultimate Shield]

My bcd 45 LSR will hold its own well past 300 meters with my hand loads

100 meters
View attachment 117105


Same gun, same ammo, same day, 650 meters (top right red&white target)
View attachment 117106


All that said, with both rifles, i can regularly hit a man sized silhouette target at 800-1000 meters with little difficulty if I aim center mass. But i give the edge to the 98k with its vastly better trigger.

Any chance you'd possibly be willing to share your load recipe?

Wow, better then I expected! I hope the Zeiss Zielsechechs I just "won" will be a nice one! I have an RC that I may use don't know yet, as when I posted some picks of it on Gunboards forum I caught hell for wanting to "mess up a nice 27 code. Oh well maybe I'll see if I can find a nice 43 byf at the local gunshow.
I have the repro HT mounts, and now I will need the top dial range indicator? who makes that, I have seen one before but I forget who sell those now. what about the rubber eye cups, or the sunshade?
Thanks, and God bless.
mike

Zielsechs didn't use a sun shade as far as I know. There is a guy on ebay that sells the repro rubber eye cups. You might be able to still get a repro dial from Robert Speilauer (he seems to keep dropping in and out of retirement).
As for the base gun, If I remember correctly, yours was a somewhat rare code and had seemingly legit SS markings, making it quite valuble, even with all the Russian humping. I highly recommend you don't destroy this one by turning it into a sniper. If anything, see if you can find someone to trade that rife with for a much better suited one. Im sure someone would be up for it.
You could also keep an eye out for a nice barreled action that's missing most/all of the matching parts. At that point they've lost most of their collectors value as it's impossible to return it to what it was, so you shouldn't rustle to many peoples jimmies

 

[8x57mauser]

Any chance you'd possibly be willing to share your load recipe?

I can dig in to my files and see what charge I used. I know its a 200gr nossler ballistic tip. I think either IMR 3031 or 4895 powder. S&B brass. Winchester primers.

I will say that you will likely need to adjust it for your rifle as this is a load I worked up for this specific rifle and it shoots so so out of my other rifles.

 

[mjohansson]

Wow, excellent info

Gee thank you all, on the barrel of my RC, I have been told in the past it was made by some commercial company and supplied to who ever as needed to complete rifles, it's date of manufacture is 1939 has the fir tree in the heart symbole and a WaA of 13 on it. There is a SS2 marking as well, and the rear sight base that part that is soldered onto the barrel, is WaA marked 359, so am I right that Styer modified this rifle for the SS? perhaps a battle field pick up and sent back for repair. Re-barreled and given to the SS. Wish it could talk. Using S&B ammo a few years back, I could get 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards with just the standard sites.

 

[Hercules]

Super nice shooting Brian and that is about as good as most of these rifles will do. Love those JPS LSRs. Nearly bought another but the guy I met at SOS jerked me around so much I got really uncomfortable. The one I accidently posted in the earlier thread is a restored JPS in the W block. I restored it to have an original sniper to shoot. The mount I used was a bit less than tight and was shooting more like 2.5-3 MOA. I now have a tighter mount.

Thanks for posting.

In general, in my experience of shooting about 75 WW2 era snipers, is that they are all pretty accurate with good ammo. On average, most good ones will shoot about 1.5-2 MOA. I have had a bunch of sub-MOA groups, mostly with Mosins because I have shot at least 40, but it is not the norm.. Smallest group was 0.4 inches for 5 shots at 100 yds off a rest with a restored 1942 Izhevsk PEM. Doubt that will happen again and some luck was likely involved.

On the head shots at 300 yds, someone proposed a test on gunboards. Of course about everyone was using a PU, me included. I rarely have a 300 yd range, once or twice per year, and using a head shaped target I could get about 80% and a few were glancing hits, which would probably put them out of action but not dead. Anyone who could get head shots consistently with a WW2 sniper at more than 300 yds had an unusually good rifle, ammo and skill IMO, not to mention a touch of luck. I did try a 1903A4 at about the same time and a 8X Unertl 1903 USMC. I had less luck with them than the PU, which was a hand selected PU of known accuracy.

This is the second German Sniper I have taken to the range. The other was BCD 4 LSR with a BEK scope. The Sauer with the Ajack had better accuracy overall. I do not shoot them very often. Just on a rare occasion. Thanks.