KS98 - WOODEN HANDLED TRIALS MODEL OF 1912

[markwadeks98]

These are the frakturs recored as being used by erfurt

No erfurt is recorded as using a T fraktur , do you perhaps have pics of the fraktur you are referring to ?

T in Erfurt is visible on page 383 Williams marked piece W11 Erfurt marked.pg 388 on Erfurt W12 marked KS5278

I don't have access to Williams book , any chance you can post a pic

 

[AndyB]

Unfortunally the letters C are wrongly readed.

 

[AndyB]

Is on Your blade on spine, what should be more avialable, the 3x different C letters reported in Jackson table are not correct read.

 

[AndyB]

Here is the correction of Ian table. Evidently the S letter is different alphabet series as the other fraktur letters. The last C is typical for Solingen area 1913-18.

-when You look to table of marking of Erfurt, You will see on 1903, 05,06,07,08 that there are exactly consisted proofing, which means one team by production and completation the bayonets to sample letter D in 1906, there is possible by switch of inspectors that the blade and pommel/parts proofs could be different but only for short time. By 3 or more various proofs Letters there should be evidently made some repairs, well proofed but realised in later period?
-from the trial KS98 1909 article from Jens W. and piece here presented by Rick that the wood grips were already proofed 1909 so 3 years before Your 1912 dated piece, and the damaged pieces from trials have clearly only 2 holes for screws on tang not 5 as reported in book of Jackson, so i should assume from all this that the W12 Erfurt started life with normal leather grips fitted with 3 rivets, proofed on blade T ( or C as You declare) and proofed on pommel by V same as on other parts, the changing to wood grips was realised properly by proof inspector under letter S most real in 1914 period.

 

[AndyB]

Letter Z should look so. The most missinterpretted letters in any books are C -E -G and U - A.
Copy from Voronov book.

 

[markwadeks98]

Here is the correction of Ian table. Evidently the S letter is different alphabet series as the other fraktur letters. The last C is typical for Solingen area 1913-18.
View attachment 331898
-when You look to table of marking of Erfurt, You will see on 1903, 05,06,07,08 that there are exactly consisted proofing, which means one team by production and completation the bayonets to sample letter D in 1906, there is possible by switch of inspectors that the blade and pommel/parts proofs could be different but only for short time. By 3 or more various proofs Letters there should be evidently made some repairs, well proofed but realised in later period?
-from the trial KS98 1909 article from Jens W. and piece here presented by Rick that the wood grips were already proofed 1909 so 3 years before Your 1912 dated piece, and the damaged pieces from trials have clearly only 2 holes for screws on tang not 5 as reported in book of Jackson, so i should assume from all this that the W12 Erfurt started life with normal leather grips fitted with 3 rivets, proofed on blade T ( or C as You declare) and proofed on pommel by V same as on other parts, the changing to wood grips was realised properly by proof inspector under letter S most real in 1914 period.

Thank you , very informative

 

[bert.f]

Hello, photo of my ks 98 Erfurt W11, marked with an E on the crossguard.
illustrative scan German fraktur (schrift) 1912 year.

 

[AndyB]

Problem by similar scripts are they are not avialable on internet, the real ones that were used in 1910-18.The stamps on bayonets are in some cases different.

 

[bert.f]

Thats why I wrote that itsa prewiew scan

 

[markwadeks98]

Here is the correction of Ian table. Evidently the S letter is different alphabet series as the other fraktur letters. The last C is typical for Solingen area 1913-18.
View attachment 331898
-when You look to table of marking of Erfurt, You will see on 1903, 05,06,07,08 that there are exactly consisted proofing, which means one team by production and completation the bayonets to sample letter D in 1906, there is possible by switch of inspectors that the blade and pommel/parts proofs could be different but only for short time. By 3 or more various proofs Letters there should be evidently made some repairs, well proofed but realised in later period?
-from the trial KS98 1909 article from Jens W. and piece here presented by Rick that the wood grips were already proofed 1909 so 3 years before Your 1912 dated piece, and the damaged pieces from trials have clearly only 2 holes for screws on tang not 5 as reported in book of Jackson, so i should assume from all this that the W12 Erfurt started life with normal leather grips fitted with 3 rivets, proofed on blade T ( or C as You declare) and proofed on pommel by V same as on other parts, the changing to wood grips was realised properly by proof inspector under letter S most real in 1914 period.

its an interesting debate with no definitive answer , the cavalry based their trial bayonets on a ks98 , they had wood handles but with longer blades and only 2 holes in the grip etc (they were newly made ,not using existing ks98 parts) ,and although similar to a ks98 arent the standard version that were trialed specifically for wood/rubber later on , the first trial bayonets specific to the colonies using either wood or rubber were in 1912 and then 1913 , all known examples have 5 holes in the grips , their proof stamps differ to the leather made 1912s (that had C on the blade / pommel etc) and are found with (C on the blade , either VV or MV on the pommel, and then a mix of stamps S/V/C on other parts)

(your corrections of the fraktuurs in the previous post are a great help )

(between myself and four friends we have around 40 ks98 bayonets , the markings for 1912 leather versus wood versus rubber match ian's book , and then for the 1913/1914 wood rubber bayonets the markings in our collections also match , again not definitive but interesting)

 

[AndyB]

Yes, it should be done more research on the proofs and samples, i assume you and Ian J. and other have enough samples to compare with, the C-T controversy is clear that on fraktur table looks similar letter C, but the inside part of the C is lower positioned as the T? letter on the blade spine. Problem is that the proofs are most real 2 alphabets, as the C on Erfurt is different to C for Solingen area. Similar as the S proof is not typical for fraktur alphabet.
Question about 5 holes used by trial bayonets, i dont have enough info about the testing, maybe Jackson or other german researches it have, its not extra important what for blades were used for me, the evidence of only 2 holes for wood or plastic grips on M1909 is significant, even the blades are longer blade sawbacks. Question remains why they drilled 3 smaller holes typical for leather
grips when the pieces are trials for wood or plastic grips?.

 

[markwadeks98]

hello, your red markings on the C fraktuurs (and what they actually are) is extremely useful , its appreciatedthat a senior member is willing to share their hard earned knowledge , i suspect that erfurt used existing blades for the trial from stock on hand , simply adding 2 more holes , but its open to speculation . Ian (i have never met him, but have his book) was given access to our war museum in south africa where he viewed quite a few ks98s in their stores (they have a few hundred , yet only choose to display 1 in the museum) and met a few of the larger ks98 collectors . over the weekend ,i will post pics specifically of the fraktuur stamps on my ks98s , i have a 1904 erfurt (leather) / 1909 erfurt leather but with wood grips replaced / 1911 erfurt leather / 1912 erfurt wood/ 1913 horster wood and 1914 erfurt rubber.

i will ask trevor to post pics of his collection , he has perhaps the most impressive schutztruppe collection that rivals any museum

Yes, it should be done more research on the proofs and samples, i assume you and Ian J. and other have enough samples to compare with, the C-T controversy is clear that on fraktur table looks similar letter C, but the inside part of the C is lower positioned as the T? letter on the blade spine. Problem is that the proofs are most real 2 alphabets, as the C on Erfurt is different to C for Solingen area. Similar as the S proof is not typical for fraktur alphabet.
Question about 5 holes used by trial bayonets, i dont have enough info about the testing, maybe Jackson or other german researches it have, its not extra important what for blades were used for me, the evidence of only 2 holes for wood or plastic grips on M1909 is significant, even the blades are longer blade sawbacks. Question remains why they drilled 3 smaller holes typical for leather
grips when the pieces are trials for wood or plastic grips?.

 

[bert.f]

Hello,
The names of the inspection officials for the Erfurt rifle factory, from the years 1901-1914
Austen -1905-?
Balschmieter- 1901-1903
Betting-1878-1911
Gebhardt- 1903-?
Hasshaus-1894-1901
Hofling- 1911-?
Kempf -1875-1910
Kellner- 1902-?
Klose-1908-?
Kohler -1902-?
Kunze-1902-?
Kutzi- 1911-?
Liebert-1911-?
Mathesius- 1909-?
Reif-1911-?
Sabiers 1905-1907
Schon- 1902-1908
Sohn- 1894-1902
Walter- 1907-?
Wilde-1906-?
Wiebe- 1909-?

greetings , Bert.

 

[grimlin13]

its appreciatedthat a senior member is willing to share their hard earned knowledge ,

This is what makes this forum the best. Members like AndyB, Slash, bruce98k, Hambone, and pwcosol to name just a few in this subforum alone. These guys and others who specialize in other areas are just as willing to help and share their knowledge. I think it is fantastic that we can bring together collectors from all over the world and of all ages. We can debate, educate and learn without censor or fear of judgement.