Late phosphate "B" block Radom Vis p35

mike radford said:
It is pretty complicated, not every detail is known, and I finally read the section on post Dec. 1944 production in York's book last night. I have not fully digested it yet so Mike can probably help, or Bob. It is good and some great history there with many documents in German partially translated. My problem with York's book was my expectation to get a good collector guide, which it falls a bit short of IMO, but good in other ways.

The Phosphate guns are all assembled after the factory equipment was moved in late 1944. All are in the second block of serial numbers, at least that is traditional wisdom(a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,j and k). The majority are in second K block, second most common is second B block, then second A block. The ones outside these blocks are very uncommon, second J block only 4 examples are known last I heard. The ones I have seen are just in a,b,j and K blocks. York says they can be in any of the second blocks. I discussed this with Charlie Wagner just a couple weeks ago at NGD, he usually sets up beside me there. He has seen a few outside my witnessed blocks as York suggests. Obviously they were not all in a series of serial numbers and are spread out. Plus, Mike, with aid of the OP's pistol has shown the last one, or some of the last examples, could be in B block(or any of the known blocks) since there is no final firing proof on the barrel and slide on the OP's pistol. This is something I had never noted. I had always assumed the last pistol would be a K block about 9000 serial number. The highest serial number is near second K 9000.

bnz marked slide examples seem to fall in about second K1000-K2400 serial range. Most bnz slide marked guns are phosphate but a few are blue and I have had one blue example in hand. There are also blank slides(and several other blocks including pre-alpha) in second K with a phospahate finish and one with no slide grip serrations(see Charlie Wagner's display at Tulsa or SCGCA shows if he ever does it again). Typically, a phosphate example will have a 623 on the left trigger guard. I would look very closely if it is missing or seems to be missing, some are poorly stamped but also some late guns have a phosphate finish added and the grips are reproduced, i.e. fakes.

Maybe some others can add and/or correct. It is probably a good idea to do this on Jan's to get the Polish and other "experts" like Kris, Charlie, and others to fill in some holes.

Hope this helps. Interesting pistols for sure.
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Thank you for all the information. I agree, these are interesting. I did put this pistol up on Jan's site also. Same user name as here.
 
dfish724 said:
Thank you for all the information. I agree, these are interesting. I did put this pistol up on Jan's site also. Same user name as here.
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I stirred the pot a bit on Jan's so maybe we can learn some more from several of the very knowing. Hope it is OK to put it on your thread but your pistol has inspired some questions I have that maybe somebody knows. Last 2 big shows I have had questions on these, like what was the last known serial number, which I discussed with Bob and Charlie at SOS. At NGD I asked Charlie what pistols has he seen outside Second a,b,j and k in Phosphate.
 
Thanks for answering on this forum and asking on the other forum. Interesting to learn. I wonder why they used the blank BNZ slides? So much to learn.
 
* Don't forget the second "H" block phosphate Radoms. Conventional "wisdom" believes these occurred around 2/H8900 or later; but, cpw found at least one earlier at the Feb., 2016 SoShows I believe. Think I've seen one other earlier 2/H that was claimed to be phosphated too; but, was very, very light (scrubbed/in white?) colored.
* As chaotic as it must have been in April of '45 at Molin, I don't doubt missed F/Proofs and final acceptance inspections. As I recall, a member here on this forum found evidence of Steyr production as early as the first quarter of '44. This could account for 2/B Radom kits being assembled as "co-production" start-up in Molin. Often another pistol deficiency causes a pistol like this to be shunted off aside to a repair status... leading to the subsequent oversight. But this is an assumption for which we do not have documentation to confirm.
* My 2/B7107 is sE/623 TG marked; but, blue with full firing proof/acceptance marks.
* Wonder if the Mug book has other unmarked examples in this range?
Regards,
Bob
 
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Late phosphate "B" block Radom Vis p35

The factory was moved from Radom to Znaim in July 44, where the parts kits were made. The assembly of these kits was at Molln. Initial assembly was with parts already made in Radom, as the Znaim facility had issues getting started. Most likely the blank slides are the first made in Znaim or are unmarked parts evacuated from Radom that were in process. These got the hand stamp bnz code. Once parts production was on line the rest got the normal slide markings. The pistols were assembled and finished at the same place as bnz45 rifles and will follow the same finishing process.

I'd bet that the variety of 2nd letter block guns seen are just part of the kits evacuated. For whatever reason they didn't make it to the assembly with the rest of those blocks, probably lost in transit and found, or other inept thing you can think of. The phosphate pistols were all done super late, in K98k terms about the mid S block phosphate shows up and ends in the 6k T block. Those phosphate pistols were made in that time span, probably March 45 and later.

If you like Radom pistols you should get York's book, it's not a collector's guide as Mike says but it's a good book.

I think my pistol is very late as well. The mismatched grip safety is in the 8800 serial range and probably came from a k block and fitted to this gun.
 
mike radford said:
I stirred the pot a bit on Jan's so maybe we can learn some more from several of the very knowing. Hope it is OK to put it on your thread but your pistol has inspired some questions I have that maybe somebody knows. Last 2 big shows I have had questions on these, like what was the last known serial number, which I discussed with Bob and Charlie at SOS. At NGD I asked Charlie what pistols has he seen outside Second a,b,j and k in Phosphate.
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No problem. I'm fine with it. I'm enjoying the history lesson.
 
Hey Mike,
* Have you noticed that late grooved slide stop?

* To expand on the Sept., '44 move of SDP Radom's inventory and machinery to Znaim, the following may illuminate what was going on better than the York description:

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?7694-Steyr-Daimler-Puch-Gusen-Znaim&highlight=Znaim

* It would be helpful to know when this pistol's kits were manufactured. If no reallocation of s/n blocks (to Znaim) occurred from a normal linear progression, it is likely this pistol's parts manufacturing took place very late in '43 or, more likely, in the first quarter of '44 at Radom. I think I see an e/77 on the R/H side after the frame s/n & the slide s/n is in the channel consistent with the 1st qtr of '44 location; so, the frame and slide "kits" would have been accepted in Radom, Poland before being shipped to Molin. I suspect lot numbers likely appear below the decocker lever and on the lower L/H frame. These may be nearly consequtive (no guarantee) to Mike S.'s example. With the main Austrian plant being bombed in Feb., '44 causing barrel production to be curtailed for a month, there is a chance this pistol's kits may have got caught up in one month cessation of the VIS's final assembly @ Molin. As Mike S. said, how this pistol's kits were stored/inventoried/shoved aside/temporaily lost/delayed may explain the lack of final proofing/assembly inspection markings.

* Unfortunately, other possibilities also exist. Znaim may have been allocated a portion of the 2/B s/n block for part kit production, had difficulties producing on schedule, and may have only got back around to this pistol's kit a year later in Feb. of '45. This would explain a very, very late assembly @ Molin along with other 2/K's. Course, the s/n in the channel suggests a Radom slide leading to a guess of Radom "seeding" Znaim with some "helper" parts. And the WAGs go on.

* Still a nice VIS, all-be-it dark. What makes VIS collecting so interesting.

Regards,
Bob
 
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RockinWR said:
* To expand on the Sept., '44 move of SDP Radom's inventory and machinery to Znaim, the following may illuminate what was going on better than the York description:
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To avoid confusion, I should clarify my July 44 date - this is the actual month (actually July 25th 1944) that the Radom factory was evacuated- the move probably started in early August. The date Sept. 44 is correct as well, and is often cited as that is the date the factory was delivered. The Germans weren't ready for the Russian advance in regards to Radom which is amazing if you think about it. The American Rifleman article has a very good story about it.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/ar...-of-the-radom-pistol-under-german-occupation/
 
mrfarb said:
To avoid confusion, I should clarify my July 44 date - this is the actual month (actually July 25th 1944) that the Radom factory was evacuated- the move probably started in early August. The date Sept. 44 is correct as well, and is often cited as that is the date the factory was delivered. The Germans weren't ready for the Russian advance in regards to Radom which is amazing if you think about it. The American Rifleman article has a very good story about it.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/ar...-of-the-radom-pistol-under-german-occupation/
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I didn't mean to open this can on your rifle forum, but thanks Mike for your help and all the background information.
 
RockinWR said:
Hey Mike,
* Have you noticed that late grooved slide stop?

* To expand on the Sept., '44 move of SDP Radom's inventory and machinery to Znaim, the following may illuminate what was going on better than the York description:

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?7694-Steyr-Daimler-Puch-Gusen-Znaim&highlight=Znaim

* It would be helpful to know when this pistol's kits were manufactured. If no reallocation of s/n blocks (to Znaim) occurred from a normal linear progression, it is likely this pistol's parts manufacturing took place very late in '43 or, more likely, in the first quarter of '44 at Radom. I think I see an e/77 on the R/H side after the frame s/n & the slide s/n is in the channel consistent with the 1st qtr of '44 location; so, the frame and slide "kits" would have been accepted in Radom, Poland before being shipped to Molin. I suspect lot numbers likely appear below the decocker lever and on the lower L/H frame. These may be nearly consequtive (no guarantee) to Mike S.'s example. With the main Austrian plant being bombed in Feb., '44 causing barrel production to be curtailed for a month, there is a chance this pistol's kits may have got caught up in one month cessation of the VIS's final assembly @ Molin. As Mike S. said, how this pistol's kits were stored/inventoried/shoved aside/temporaily lost/delayed may explain the lack of final proofing/assembly inspection markings.

* Unfortunately, other possibilities also exist. Znaim may have been allocated a portion of the 2/B s/n block for part kit production, had difficulties producing on schedule, and may have only got back around to this pistol's kit a year later in Feb. of '45. This would explain a very, very late assembly @ Molin along with other 2/K's. Course, the s/n in the channel suggests a Radom slide leading to a guess of Radom "seeding" Znaim with some "helper" parts. And the WAGs go on.

* Still a nice VIS, all-be-it dark. What makes VIS collecting so interesting.

Regards,
Bob
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Thanks Bob. If you want more or better pictures of any part let me know. I will try to get a closer picture of the number behind the decocker.
 
This isn't a can, this is good discussion! I'm a late war guy and you can't be a late war guy without a phosphate Radom.
 
You are right, this is a good discussion. Here is the number under the decocker (49436) and the safety serial.

image.jpg image.jpg
 
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