Letter codes to ponder

I'd say early 1940. Had several, none now. Also find the M and 221 on bolt parts of that time frame as well, but lots less of the bands seen. Photo of a matching Norway bolt removed from an early "no suffix" 337/1940.View attachment 151730View attachment 151736View attachment 151740View attachment 151753

Great items mowzerluvr!! Thank you for sharing. I love that "b" marked cocking piece, and check out the "2" stamped on it as well. Do you know the meaning/significance of the "circle k" marking?


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The 2 is either the finished product line person or inspector. The circle K is up in the air right now, I posted it earlier in this thread and to my knowledge is "first mention" of it. My best guess is it's a Kohler inspection release proof.
 
The 2 is either the finished product line person or inspector. The circle K is up in the air right now, I posted it earlier in this thread and to my knowledge is "first mention" of it. My best guess is it's a Kohler inspection release proof.

Indeed, I have never seen it mentioned before so it's safe to say you're the first person to identify and comment on it! Your guess is a good one, it would make sense. Great discovery! :)


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Oh man sounds like a nice one! I've got two 36 BLM's in need, check your email. However the parts I am talking about are literally stamped "S/237". BLM spares/armorers?? I have seen a barrel band and an extractor I believe with around a 2mm tall font with "S/237" stamped in them. I assume they are just like the S/42 Oberndorf parts. Has anyone else seen what I am talking about before? One was on a m/m rifle at a show about 8years ago, I wish now that I had traded him a band for it. I do have one of those m221 bands, here's a picture, and a cool early FN bolt too, I believe these were found on port contracts.

I have a doozy of an S/237 part for you. All matching stock, even the trigger guard complete assembly, bands, butt plate, hand guard, bayo lug... WITH "M" marking Kriegsmarine proof on the side of the but and Nordsee markings on the take down disc. All e/26 proofed parts.
 

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Love the "m" WaA221" band and that FN bolt! Seems like we are clarifying a lot of FN stuff here.

Back to the "circled Z" which has me perplexed. I know that "circled A" has been seen and identified by Kriegsmodell as a marking used to "cancel out" or reject parts out of Oberndorf Mauser assembly. I tend to think that the word "reject" is less accurate, it seems to me that the parts I have seen it on were accepted and WaA stamped, then AFTER acceptance got diverted out to other uses such as civilian rifles or sent out to non-Oberndorf assembly. In Kriegsmodell III they show a proof that is overstamped with the "circled A" in fact. So the marking has the purpose of "cancelling out" ASSEMBLY or use AT OBERNDORF but not actual rejection for use. Could be totally wrong here but we have already seen the "asterisk" used as a rejection marking so why have two? Of course we are merely guessing about very uncommon markings here but it's fun. Any thoughts anyone?? :)

The "circled K" has only been seen by itself so I gather, but the "Circled A" has been used by itself too, that is to say used not as an overstamp but right out in the open and clearly intentional to stand on its own, whatever the meaning. You state you've seen the K on Gustloff assembled rifles (no surprise that Gustloff suppliers get MORE complicated) so I wonder where those parts came from initially? Do you know the supplier markings on the "circled K" shrouds? I know I have seen "Circled Z" parts too, some with the European style cross through the center part of the Z and some without. My dim recollection wants to associate the crossed Z with Czech production.

We also know/believe that the "star" marking was used to designate parts diverted FROM a foreign contract back into German used rifles, so we can conclude that swapping into and out of foreign contract stockpiles was sometimes designated at the part level. (See the cocking piece earlier in this thread.) At the stages of the war where they were still closely inspecting assembled rifles, these markings would have been well known to the inspectors and they would have recognized the uses and been able to pass or reject the whole rifle. Of course later on this degree of tracking and inspection would go out the window. If we can find enough of these various markings on what we know to be original condition all-matching rifles we can make more educated theories on what they meant and when they occur.

Another reason for folks to STOP RUINING PARTS. Dang it!!


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Oh man sounds like a nice one! I've got two 36 BLM's in need, check your email. However the parts I am talking about are literally stamped "S/237". BLM spares/armorers?? I have seen a barrel band and an extractor I believe with around a 2mm tall font with "S/237" stamped in them. I assume they are just like the S/42 Oberndorf parts. Has anyone else seen what I am talking about before? One was on a m/m rifle at a show about 8years ago, I wish now that I had traded him a band for it. I do have one of those m221 bands, here's a picture, and a cool early FN bolt too, I believe these were found on port contracts.

I WANT that band......
 
Love the "m" WaA221" band and that FN bolt! Seems like we are clarifying a lot of FN stuff here.

Back to the "circled Z" which has me perplexed. I know that "circled A" has been seen and identified by Kriegsmodell as a marking used to "cancel out" or reject parts out of Oberndorf Mauser assembly. I tend to think that the word "reject" is less accurate, it seems to me that the parts I have seen it on were accepted and WaA stamped, then AFTER acceptance got diverted out to other uses such as civilian rifles or sent out to non-Oberndorf assembly. In Kriegsmodell III they show a proof that is overstamped with the "circled A" in fact. So the marking has the purpose of "cancelling out" ASSEMBLY or use AT OBERNDORF but not actual rejection for use. Could be totally wrong here but we have already seen the "asterisk" used as a rejection marking so why have two? Of course we are merely guessing about very uncommon markings here but it's fun. Any thoughts anyone?? :)

The "circled K" has only been seen by itself so I gather, but the "Circled A" has been used by itself too, that is to say used not as an overstamp but right out in the open and clearly intentional to stand on its own, whatever the meaning. You state you've seen the K on Gustloff assembled rifles (no surprise that Gustloff suppliers get MORE complicated) so I wonder where those parts came from initially? Do you know the supplier markings on the "circled K" shrouds? I know I have seen "Circled Z" parts too, some with the European style cross through the center part of the Z and some without. My dim recollection wants to associate the crossed Z with Czech production.

We also know/believe that the "star" marking was used to designate parts diverted FROM a foreign contract back into German used rifles, so we can conclude that swapping into and out of foreign contract stockpiles was sometimes designated at the part level. (See the cocking piece earlier in this thread.) At the stages of the war where they were still closely inspecting assembled rifles, these markings would have been well known to the inspectors and they would have recognized the uses and been able to pass or reject the whole rifle. Of course later on this degree of tracking and inspection would go out the window. If we can find enough of these various markings on what we know to be original condition all-matching rifles we can make more educated theories on what they meant and when they occur.

Another reason for folks to STOP RUINING PARTS. Dang it!!


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Yes, the circle K on both 337/39 bolts were on shrouds maker marked by Hermann Kohler AG Maschinenfabrik, Altenburg, Thul. So a circle K may well be an in house marking that they used early on but stopped for reasons of nothing more than to speed up production? There are two matching 337/1939 rifles in the pic stickies but the rear of the bolt shroud are not shown.
 
Gustloff bolt guts study

Ok, gathered up 7 of my matching Gustloff bolt assemblies. These are all 337/1940 or bcd 41 early guts. Only grabbed the e/221 assemblies. Of the 7, two of them had the "b" proof on the plunger, and one of them was a leftover e/4 plunger. DSC03689.jpgAll else seemed pretty uniform with markings and proofs. All of the pins had both the "e" and e/221 save for just one with a "q" and e/221.DSC03695.jpg All the shrouds were identical save for 3 of them that all had both a tiny "R" and "K" on the inside shroud lip.DSC03690.jpg Seeing the shrouds are all "e" marked from Herman Kohler Mfg. I am guessing the "K" is for Kohler, but the "R" is a mystery. As a side note my oldest son thinks I am a little "off" studying these tiny markings and differences and was just blasting "too much time on my hands, by Styx" on the Bose system...lol.
 
Also, of the 7 assemblies, 4 of them had the shroud marked with "e" and e/221. Two had "n" with e/221 and one with "e" e/18 , and of all of them only one was found with the "m" and e/221.DSC03715.jpgDSC03716.jpg
 
Also, of the 7 assemblies, 4 of them had the shroud marked with "e" and e/221. Two had "n" with e/221 and one with "e" e/18 , and of all of them only one was found with the "m" and e/221.View attachment 151860View attachment 151861

This is really good stuff mowzerluvr!! We are seeing some great pieces from your collection and I am seeing markings I've never seen before. THIS is good stuff!! Thank you! Clearly you are on to something with the "circled K" marking, not to mention the others you have pointed out. Anyone else have any rifles that could help us figure these markings out? The "circled K" on bolt shrouds, and the "b" on cocking pieces, and the "m" on bolt shrouds, and the tiny letters on the front rim of the shrouds are seen and commented on here for the first time so far as I know. That's pretty cool to think there are STILL unknowns in markings on rifles that have been scrutinized so thoroughly.

Near the top of this thread I posted some pictures of tiny markings on the front of gas shrouds made by Köhler (e) and now we have clearly visible letters. It looks like later "e" shrouds don't have both letters but have the one marking that I can't make out. Also the early shrouds have the "circled K" in that unusual place on the back, which also later disappears. Great stuff guys. Thank you. :)


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This is really good stuff mowzerluvr!! We are seeing some great pieces from your collection and I am seeing markings I've never seen before. THIS is good stuff!! Thank you! Clearly you are on to something with the "circled K" marking, not to mention the others you have pointed out. Anyone else have any rifles that could help us figure these markings out? The "circled K" on bolt shrouds, and the "b" on cocking pieces, and the "m" on bolt shrouds, and the tiny letters on the front rim of the shrouds are seen and commented on here for the first time so far as I know. That's pretty cool to think there are STILL unknowns in markings on rifles that have been scrutinized so thoroughly.

Near the top of this thread I posted some pictures of tiny markings on the front of gas shrouds made by Köhler (e) and now we have clearly visible letters. It looks like later "e" shrouds don't have both letters but have the one marking that I can't make out. Also the early shrouds have the "circled K" in that unusual place on the back, which also later disappears. Great stuff guys. Thank you. :)


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Glad to help. It really helps to have so many matching pieces from the same makers and/or manufacturer. This is fun.
 
Let me tell you bout' the BIRDS and the "B's"

Here is a bunch of bSw and some 337/1939 pieces to ponder. DSC03743.jpgDSC03744.jpg
Wondering if anyone else has seen an early droop eagle/4 rear scale WITH a Simson triangle logo?
DSC03745.jpg
An array of safeties showing big differences in style and markings between the top one and bottom two.
DSC03746.jpgDSC03747.jpgDSC03748.jpgDSC03749.jpg
Early with "K", milled with a shorter step, then later added the "B" w/e4, then just e/4.
DSC03750.jpgDSC03751.jpgDSC03752.jpg
Shroud/safety combo in transition from bSw to 337 possibly.
DSC03753.jpgDSC03754.jpg
Three rear sight bases. The one with the "B" on the side also had additional markings underneath where the other two did not.
DSC03755.jpgDSC03756.jpgDSC03757.jpg
Perhaps this will trigger some discussion:laugh:... all but one with the less refined, blocky sear. The sears with "a" and e/18's, e/221, e/46, "o" and "e" are off 1939/337 rifles.
DSC03758.jpgDSC03759.jpgDSC03760.jpg
 
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Here is a bunch of bSw and some 337/1939 pieces to ponder. View attachment 152382View attachment 152383
Wondering if anyone else has seen an early droop eagle/4 rear scale WITH a Simson triangle logo?
View attachment 152384
An array of safeties showing big differences in style and markings between the top one and bottom two.
View attachment 152385View attachment 152386View attachment 152387View attachment 152388
Early with "K", milled with a shorter step, then later added the "B" w/e4, then just e/4.
View attachment 152389View attachment 152390View attachment 152391
Shroud/safety combo in transition from bSw to 337 possibly.
View attachment 152392View attachment 152393
Three rear sight bases. The one with the "B" on the side also had additional markings underneath where the other two did not.
View attachment 152394View attachment 152395View attachment 152396
Perhaps this will trigger some discussion:laugh:... all but one with the less refined, blocky sear. The sears with "a" and e/18's, e/221, e/46, "o" and "e" are off 1939/337 rifles.
View attachment 152397View attachment 152398View attachment 152399

Great pieces mowzerluvr!! I'm TRIGGERED now! I was under the impression that the block-ended sears were strictly late war, are you thinking that is not the case? I love all the various markings, the "B" is super uncommon among parts that circulate nowadays! Great stuff and thank you! We are getting some awesome variants in this thread. :)


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TRIGGERED II: the sequel

Let's take a look at two main things here: the triggers identified as "35" coded and used on late "dou" rifles, and sintetered or "pressed metal" triggers.

First let's look at a few examples. Here we have a grouping of triggers and a late blocky sear. The left three triggers are "35" triggers and the right most trigger is a very similar "e" coded Köhler trigger. Note that there are two different sizes of number stampings for the "35" triggers: the left two are small 35's and the right is larger. The "e" trigger is, as usual, marked on the other side, this side is blank.

7cd5a6200fe5c22377d62e0eb82787d8.jpg


Clearly "35" is a manufacturer code, as yet unknown as to what the company that made them was, but as Kriegsmodell III says, and as you can see here, enough exist to be sure it's a code. Here is a closer look at the "35" markings.

b430f7430a6a490fac93fe2ad309ba76.jpg


Here is the opposite side of the Köhler and two of the "35" triggers. Same orientation as the other pictures, without the left trigger/sear.
d71680bc21961b036c24f3ec253e2fe2.jpg


Now the following is based on information found on pages 17-21 and 36-37 of Kriegsmodell III, along with my own interpretations and is something I have not seen elsewhere. I think that late war sintered or pressed metal triggers exist and are identifiable. On page 18, point #12 covers the existence and adoption of sintered triggers, and gives a hint as to their identification. "After machine forming the actual trigger release area, the area will be polished and radius points finalized."

Military K98 triggers are two stage triggers, so there are two engagement surfaces on the top of the sear. Look at the following picture. On the left is a fairly common "e" Köhler trigger, on the right an "s" marked older trigger. Note the difference in the surfaces that engage the flat underside of the receiver, and which contact causes the rear of the sear to drop and allow the cocking piece to move forward due to compression of the firing pin spring.

b8d1cab71cb032ceb180be30b6e6b1ec.jpg


242ceacc562f4f6ec1667ba5e4b56a79.jpg


Clearly, these surfaces reached their final configuration by different machining methods. The left trigger seems to represent "machine forming the actual trigger release area". This configuration is seen on late "e" and "35" triggers, along with the next difference. There is a change to the contour of the front of the trigger as well. On the left is a late setup and on the right an earlier trigger/sear. Note the shape as indicated by my lines in the area indicated. Also, look back at the pictures above where the sear engagement areas are circled and you can clearly see the semi-circular arc in the front face of the late style trigger.

0225feb88a0e47d437a91e4e4402da47.jpg


It is my contention that these style triggers are made with the sintering process, as mentioned in the Oberndorf documents quoted in Kriegsmodell III. The process lends itself quite well to objects like the sear and trigger, and also to the front band for the stock. Here is an excellent combination of two short videos to explain exactly how the sintering process works.

https://youtu.be/O7U4HWjYcqo

In this final photo, we can then see the changes more clearly, with the later style setup on the left. Note the blocky fronted sear (more on those coming in another post) as well as the trigger differences: the different top shapes, and the different front shapes on the vertical shaft of the trigger. Of course none of these things are really detectable with the stock on the rifle, but I think the manufacturing difference and resultant different shapes are worth noting.
I also think that these type of changes help identify later applied parts, whether by repair depots or otherwise.

db9676a0f1f5ae016a07396326eaa7bf.jpg


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I used to think the blocky style indicated less time spent on "the process" so to speak. But on the e/4 trigger sears I believe the "B" marked are PRIOR to the well made, rounded sears I have that only have the e/4's on them. So my theory before seems not valid. M1903A3, I have never noticed the 35 marked parts. f I have in the past I would have assumed they were serial numbers. Good learning study.
 
I used to think the blocky style indicated less time spent on "the process" so to speak. But on the e/4 trigger sears I believe the "B" marked are PRIOR to the well made, rounded sears I have that only have the e/4's on them. So my theory before seems not valid. M1903A3, I have never noticed the 35 marked parts. f I have in the past I would have assumed they were serial numbers. Good learning study.

Thank you sir! I am learning a lot from your posts and parts as well, along with the other contributions here in this thread.

Kriegsmodell III is not certain about the exact origin of each sear style, and understandably so. In the same pages of the book I referenced above, Oberndorf notes that revised pattern sears (such as they are discussing, they do NOT mention the blocky front though!!) are already being made by other manufacturers, so like many other mechanical and manufacturing advances, changeovers can't be assigned a clean break. U.S. WWII rifles are FULL of examples of these type of changes.

So if the blocky sears you show can be positively known to be originally supplied on rifles then we might be able to lock down the first manufacture of that style. It is possible then that the recommendation in the Oberndorf document was merely recommending that THEIR production line adopt the "revised" style. (See next post on sears coming up once I get the parts out and all the pictures wrangled.)

The main purpose of my post on triggers and the next post about sears is to try to address actual evidence of the recommended production simplifications in the Oberndorf document discussed in Kriegsmodell III. The elimination of the bayonet lug, the elimination of the bolt disassembly disk and change to the buttplate, and most all the other changes in K98 production are pretty well covered and demonstrable elsewhere. If people are aware of these smaller changes in the triggers and sears then we can perhaps accumulate good data on them.

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