boilerop
Senior Member
https://www.simpsonltd.com/products/c38775 Is this a real thing.? Just curious if anybody has seen one?! I figured if it was Simpson Would have it for ALOT more.
Lithuania k 98!?
- Thread starter boilerop
- Start date
mowzerluvr
Hey Buddy, is that an E/4 in your pocket?
Sounds post war modified, not worth half the price as far a I'm concerned.
samuel990
Senior Member
It's absolutely a real thing, I cover an example on P.811 in Volume 2. The one in the link is exactly the same, rebuilt by Königsburg during WW2 (very unique firing proof used there), probably using a spare FN barrel supplied to Lithuania and converted to K98k. I'm not sure exactly what would be different on the two rifles (FN supplied VZ24 type rifles to Lithuania). That seems very high priced for a bolt mismatch, but I guess if you guys came across a matching one you would pass on it thinking its fake or postwar, which is where I swoop in and buy your mistake. 
That's a terrible format to sell K98k rifles, very few details in the photos at all which would help validate and sell it.
That's a terrible format to sell K98k rifles, very few details in the photos at all which would help validate and sell it.
John Strunk
Senior Member
I remember, maybe in 1996 a discussion about these rifles on the very old original gunboards which were sold to Lithuania just months prior to the outbreak of ww2. The conversation also mentioned Czech Vz24's. However, I remember the very odd thing (perhaps why I remember these at all) was that these rifles were chambered in 303 British.
On Simpson Ltd website, any gun with the SKU number beginning with a "C" means its a consignment gun. Which means there are no trades or dealing to be done. Lately most of Simpson's guns coming up for sale are consignment which is why quite a few of the 98k's showing up are still for sale. Also if the SKU number begins with a "Z" it's an import and also a consignment, same deal as the C guns. "D" guns are Simpson owned and can be traded for.
I have spent lots of time in his store(s) over the years. Bob Simpson is nearly unparalleled in the quantity of collector firearms under one roof. He has racks and racks full of the Trainer rifles (even did a book on them) but they aren't for sale. He also has a room with 3 of the walls full of Lugers for sale.
I have spent lots of time in his store(s) over the years. Bob Simpson is nearly unparalleled in the quantity of collector firearms under one roof. He has racks and racks full of the Trainer rifles (even did a book on them) but they aren't for sale. He also has a room with 3 of the walls full of Lugers for sale.
Lithuanian K98k
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In regards to Konigsburg K98k rework with Lithuanian insignia "Columns of Gediminas" and "C", the barrel is most likely German, probably made from blanks at Konigsburg.
K98k barrels are 600mm. Czech VZ.24 and FN Model 1924 barrels are 590mm. They simply are too short to be used in a K98k.
I have seen Czech VZ.24 receivers used in K98k production (dot 1944). I have never seen a VZ.24 barrel used.
The "Columns of Gediminas" insignia on this K98k rework is very different from those found on FN 24 L rifles.
The Lithuanian Army and arms were seized by Stalin in June 1940, when the USSR annexed Lithuania. The USSR occupied Lithuanian for a year before Hitler invaded in June 1941.
It seems unlikely that the Germans found any quantity of Lithuanian arms or parts when they arrived in Lithuania in 1941.
The Germans were able to enlist some 30,000 Lithuanians into an SS Division which was assigned to the Atlantic Wall and fought at Normandy.
Some Lithuanians also joined various other service units in the German Army which served in Lithuanian and on the Eastern Front.
This rifle was clearly intended to be issued to some Lithuanian unit serving in the German Army.
Note: Non-standard and Reworked K98ks are often associated with SS formations.
Here below are photographs of an FN 24 L. The large "Columns of Gediminas" insignia was struck on the receivers. Small "Columns of Gediminas" marks were struck on many parts.
The standard FN proof marks appear on the barrel. These marks are very different from those on the Konigsburg K98k reworks for Lithuania.
Also of note, the Konigsburg rework barrels are numbered to match the various recycled receivers so these numbers give no clue as to how many rifles were reworked with the Lithuanian mark.
But surviving examples are rather scarce and we would have seen many more, if 30,000 of these rifles were in France in 1944.
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In regards to Konigsburg K98k rework with Lithuanian insignia "Columns of Gediminas" and "C", the barrel is most likely German, probably made from blanks at Konigsburg.
K98k barrels are 600mm. Czech VZ.24 and FN Model 1924 barrels are 590mm. They simply are too short to be used in a K98k.
I have seen Czech VZ.24 receivers used in K98k production (dot 1944). I have never seen a VZ.24 barrel used.
The "Columns of Gediminas" insignia on this K98k rework is very different from those found on FN 24 L rifles.
The Lithuanian Army and arms were seized by Stalin in June 1940, when the USSR annexed Lithuania. The USSR occupied Lithuanian for a year before Hitler invaded in June 1941.
It seems unlikely that the Germans found any quantity of Lithuanian arms or parts when they arrived in Lithuania in 1941.
The Germans were able to enlist some 30,000 Lithuanians into an SS Division which was assigned to the Atlantic Wall and fought at Normandy.
Some Lithuanians also joined various other service units in the German Army which served in Lithuanian and on the Eastern Front.
This rifle was clearly intended to be issued to some Lithuanian unit serving in the German Army.
Note: Non-standard and Reworked K98ks are often associated with SS formations.
Here below are photographs of an FN 24 L. The large "Columns of Gediminas" insignia was struck on the receivers. Small "Columns of Gediminas" marks were struck on many parts.
The standard FN proof marks appear on the barrel. These marks are very different from those on the Konigsburg K98k reworks for Lithuania.
Also of note, the Konigsburg rework barrels are numbered to match the various recycled receivers so these numbers give no clue as to how many rifles were reworked with the Lithuanian mark.
But surviving examples are rather scarce and we would have seen many more, if 30,000 of these rifles were in France in 1944.
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The Weimar eagle on the side could be the typical "Weimar Eagle over Kg" which was applied by the Königsberg depot, I've seen others and I think it's on the one I have.
As to the FN vs. VZ24 barrels, thanks G.33/40 for clarifying the length difference between the two, I've never measured and don't own an FN Lithuania rifle like yours. Your idea seems to imply that the Lithuanian markings on the barrels were some sort of property marking - I disagree with that idea for the simple fact that not all of the Lithuanian markings seen are stamped in a visible location on these reworked 98k's, more like the marking was applied to the barrel prior to assembly. So that would mean the barrel was loose while it was stamped - that indicates to me that the barrels were some kind of spares that were previously marked, and not marked for ownership. Perhaps some Lithuanian manufacturing facility made barrels for the K98k? I admit that I'm woefully ignorant of the situation in Lithuania before and during the war.
As to the FN vs. VZ24 barrels, thanks G.33/40 for clarifying the length difference between the two, I've never measured and don't own an FN Lithuania rifle like yours. Your idea seems to imply that the Lithuanian markings on the barrels were some sort of property marking - I disagree with that idea for the simple fact that not all of the Lithuanian markings seen are stamped in a visible location on these reworked 98k's, more like the marking was applied to the barrel prior to assembly. So that would mean the barrel was loose while it was stamped - that indicates to me that the barrels were some kind of spares that were previously marked, and not marked for ownership. Perhaps some Lithuanian manufacturing facility made barrels for the K98k? I admit that I'm woefully ignorant of the situation in Lithuania before and during the war.
racerlee
Well-known member
Thanks mrfarb for the info on the Weimar eagle. When I first saw it on a cupped buttplate stock. It looked really strange. Thanks for the clarification.
Lithuanian K98k
I see your point that the Konigsburg Depot Lithuanian "Columns of Gediminas" and "C"were applied to the barrel without reference as to whether they would be visible when finally spun into place.
That said, the strike is fresh and the edges are raised so again in my opinion this was done as part of the Kg rework.
The next question is, if these marks were Kg depot marks, why were they used at all, if they were not necessarily made to be seen.?
Perhaps there was a financial trail. Perhaps Nazi Lithuania somehow paid to have these rifles reworked for their SS Division or their SS Police units and thus it is more an accountability mark.?
Lithuania in 1940 was about 3 million people. Stalin's occupation was a brutal affair. The Nazi occupation was not much better. Below is a brief history: World War 2 in Lithuania (1940-1944):
"The cruelties of the June 1940 Soviet occupation, led to a widespread despise of the regime in less than a year.
When Nazi Germany declared war on the Soviet Union in June 1941, the Lithuanians staged a June Revolt and managed to liberate most of their country.
However, the German armies came in and while Germany did not immediately abolish the provisional government, they rendered it powerless.
The Nazi occupation brought a relief from the Soviet persecutions but it had its own target: the Jews. The number of Jews living in Lithuania declined by ~88%.
By 1944 the Germans were losing the war and the Soviets re-occupied Lithuania. Knowing what to expect many Lithuanians fled with the retreating Germans.
Lithuania lost ~8% of its pre-WW2 inhabitants due to Nazi actions and ~32% due to Soviet actions, some 40% in total (1,15 million out of 3 million). "
I doubt there was any manufacturing of K98k barrels in Nazi occupied Lithuanian. Again, I believe it is more likely that these barrels were made or finished from blanks at Kg.
I see your point that the Konigsburg Depot Lithuanian "Columns of Gediminas" and "C"were applied to the barrel without reference as to whether they would be visible when finally spun into place.
That said, the strike is fresh and the edges are raised so again in my opinion this was done as part of the Kg rework.
The next question is, if these marks were Kg depot marks, why were they used at all, if they were not necessarily made to be seen.?
Perhaps there was a financial trail. Perhaps Nazi Lithuania somehow paid to have these rifles reworked for their SS Division or their SS Police units and thus it is more an accountability mark.?
Lithuania in 1940 was about 3 million people. Stalin's occupation was a brutal affair. The Nazi occupation was not much better. Below is a brief history: World War 2 in Lithuania (1940-1944):
"The cruelties of the June 1940 Soviet occupation, led to a widespread despise of the regime in less than a year.
When Nazi Germany declared war on the Soviet Union in June 1941, the Lithuanians staged a June Revolt and managed to liberate most of their country.
However, the German armies came in and while Germany did not immediately abolish the provisional government, they rendered it powerless.
The Nazi occupation brought a relief from the Soviet persecutions but it had its own target: the Jews. The number of Jews living in Lithuania declined by ~88%.
By 1944 the Germans were losing the war and the Soviets re-occupied Lithuania. Knowing what to expect many Lithuanians fled with the retreating Germans.
Lithuania lost ~8% of its pre-WW2 inhabitants due to Nazi actions and ~32% due to Soviet actions, some 40% in total (1,15 million out of 3 million). "
I doubt there was any manufacturing of K98k barrels in Nazi occupied Lithuanian. Again, I believe it is more likely that these barrels were made or finished from blanks at Kg.
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Lithuanian K98k
Thanks Loewe,
Good information.
5 Battalions might be as high as 800 men x 5 = 4,000 men and arms probably for use inside Lithuania.
I read the Lithuanian SS Division was at 30,000 men and sent to France (might be a question of reliability) .
I am surprised the Russians left anything behind.
However quantities of spare rifle barrels is still very unlikely.
Besides FN 24 L barrels are too short for K98k use.
Thanks Loewe,
Good information.
5 Battalions might be as high as 800 men x 5 = 4,000 men and arms probably for use inside Lithuania.
I read the Lithuanian SS Division was at 30,000 men and sent to France (might be a question of reliability) .
I am surprised the Russians left anything behind.
However quantities of spare rifle barrels is still very unlikely.
Besides FN 24 L barrels are too short for K98k use.
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