Looking to find a possible explanation for the numbering of of the bolt on my k98a.

[WDL0209]

Hello! I wanted to make a post both showing off, and asking about the numbering on my kar98s bolt. I picked up this 1915 Erfurt kar98a for probably more than it's worth ($1125) but I was infatuated with it's cool history and really don't regret it at all. The gun is a ww1 survivor which went into Weimar service and issued to the police and a police unit marking was placed on the takedown disk. The gun is completely matching, including the stock which is not cut with finger grooves which checks out with the build date of 1915. But it did get the takedown disk later on. The gun did go through a Weimar rework and received a bolt hold open follower modification, But the stock was not replaced which is really neat and is also matching to the gun and is likely the same stock the gun was built with and served with all its life. The handguard, though cracked is also matching. The stock also has an H carved into the stock, for whatever reason, and the 1920 Weimar property stamp. What's super neat is the very faded but visible star of David very lightly carved into the stock, I want to believe this was done during it's time in Germany. If so, would be a really cool little piece that is special for fairly obvious reasons for what was happening in Germany at the time. The sling is reproduction and the bayonet is a super rusty cutdown sawback which is pretty neat to display with the rifle. The only part of this rifle that doesn't match though is the bolt. Which is still all German parts as evident by the Prussian eagle stamp on the bolt body. However, the unusual thing is that the bolt body was renumbered in an unconventional manner that doesn't align with what I'd expect the Germans to have done. I wanted to reach out with some photos of it and see if anyone has seen this pattern of numbering on German mausers and why it may have been done.

Thanks all
William

Also if someone can help withe police unit markings that would be hugely appreciated.

 

[AN-94]

The style of numbering on the bolt body makes me think it's a Turkish renumbered bolt. Turkey would update all kinds of Mausers in the late 1930s and after WWII and they used pretty much everything from original 1890 Mauser parts up to Imperial German surplus parts. Can't remember if they received Kar98as as aid during WWI but I have seen Kar98a parts end up in Turkish Mausers.

 

[Loewe]

It has a property (1920) stamp. Turkey is not likely.

What you have depends on numerous good pictures, these are inadequate

 

[chrisftk]

Highly unlikely that that bolt was numbered in Germany. Probably sold to a different country post-Weimar service or a bad hump job.

The unit mark is interesting-- and not 100% sure on it. If it is police, my guess would be maybe a fahrer (driver) unit within Schutzpolizei district, maybe Aurich. If it's Imperial era, S.A. would normally mean a signal battalion, but the "F" would be a bit confounding there.

To Loewe's point, more pictures might help.

 

[WDL0209]

The style of numbering on the bolt body makes me think it's a Turkish renumbered bolt. Turkey would update all kinds of Mausers in the late 1930s and after WWII and they used pretty much everything from original 1890 Mauser parts up to Imperial German surplus parts. Can't remember if they received Kar98as as aid during WWI but I have seen Kar98a parts end up in Turkish Mausers.

And I've heard that too. I'm just not 100% sure that's the best explanation. Cause if the rifle ended up in turkey, I feel the whole gun would be non matching and trashed to an extent. And on this rifle everything is matching except the bolt. I just wanted to prick the minds of others on the subject. Sounds like my photos were inadequate and I'll be posting more soon. Likely related to the bolt.

 

[WDL0209]

It has a property (1920) stamp. Turkey is not likely.

What you have depends on numerous good pictures, these are inadequate

That's on me, I have pictures of the bolt broken down and all of its markings on my computer at home cause I had to downscale the photos to post on the forum. Seems I accidentally forgot to add the important ones. I'll get those posted when I get home. In the mean time. I can say that all parts of the bolt are not matching. But all parts have German proof marks that align with the correct time period for the bolt. Only the bolt handle has the original numbers scrubbed and the weird new numbers applied. I've been researching stamping fonts and I'm not turning up a lot. Thanks for the reply. I'll get all those pictures when I get home for you.

 

[WDL0209]

Highly unlikely that that bolt was numbered in Germany. Probably sold to a different country post-Weimar service or a bad hump job.

The unit mark is interesting-- and not 100% sure on it. If it is police, my guess would be maybe a fahrer (driver) unit within Schutzpolizei district, maybe Aurich. If it's Imperial era, S.A. would normally mean a signal battalion, but the "F" would be a bit confounding there.

To Loewe's point, more pictures might help.

I have pictures of the entire bolt torn down on my computer to downscale them to post here, but I failed to post them yesterday. That's on me. See my reply to Loewe for a bit of an explanation of the seen markings in the meantime.

As for the unit marking, that's about the conclusion I came to as well. The S.A I can make sense of. The rest is a bit of a mystery.

 

[AN-94]

And I've heard that too. I'm just not 100% sure that's the best explanation. Cause if the rifle ended up in turkey, I feel the whole gun would be non matching and trashed to an extent. And on this rifle everything is matching except the bolt. I just wanted to prick the minds of others on the subject. Sounds like my photos were inadequate and I'll be posting more soon. Likely related to the bolt.

I agree with the above sentiment of more pictures. I only say Turkey as that's the style I've seen on numerous Turkish Mausers. I should have clarified in my earlier post but the rifle itself doesn't have any signs of going to Turkey but it's possible it came back with a different bolt and someone later swapped it with an Imperial Kar98a bolt from a Turkish mauser to "correct" it

 

[WDL0209]

I agree with the above sentiment of more pictures. I only say Turkey as that's the style I've seen on numerous Turkish Mausers. I should have clarified in my earlier post but the rifle itself doesn't have any signs of going to Turkey but it's possible it came back with a different bolt and someone later swapped it with an Imperial Kar98a bolt from a Turkish mauser to "correct" it

That's a pretty possible idea. At least it's German I guess. Are there any recorded Turkish k98as stateside that can be used as a comparison? I've never even heard of a Turkish k98a to be honest.

 

[JimF]

Are there any markings on the tang of the butt plate?

 

[WDL0209]

Are there any markings on the tang of the butt plate?

None, only unit markings are on the takedown disk.

 

[WDL0209]

I agree with the above sentiment of more pictures. I only say Turkey as that's the style I've seen on numerous Turkish Mausers. I should have clarified in my earlier post but the rifle itself doesn't have any signs of going to Turkey but it's possible it came back with a different bolt and someone later swapped it with an Imperial Kar98a bolt from a Turkish mauser to "correct" it

I think I finally got it worked out. You had it just about spot on, but I went and found some additional details on the origin of a Turkish k98a bolt. I'm posting a reply to the original post as a resolution.

 

[WDL0209]

Hello! I wanted to make a post both showing off, and asking about the numbering on my kar98s bolt. I picked up this 1915 Erfurt kar98a for probably more than it's worth ($1125) but I was infatuated with it's cool history and really don't regret it at all. The gun is a ww1 survivor which went into Weimar service and issued to the police and a police unit marking was placed on the takedown disk. The gun is completely matching, including the stock which is not cut with finger grooves which checks out with the build date of 1915. But it did get the takedown disk later on. The gun did go through a Weimar rework and received a bolt hold open follower modification, But the stock was not replaced which is really neat and is also matching to the gun and is likely the same stock the gun was built with and served with all its life. The handguard, though cracked is also matching. The stock also has an H carved into the stock, for whatever reason, and the 1920 Weimar property stamp. What's super neat is the very faded but visible star of David very lightly carved into the stock, I want to believe this was done during it's time in Germany. If so, would be a really cool little piece that is special for fairly obvious reasons for what was happening in Germany at the time. The sling is reproduction and the bayonet is a super rusty cutdown sawback which is pretty neat to display with the rifle. The only part of this rifle that doesn't match though is the bolt. Which is still all German parts as evident by the Prussian eagle stamp on the bolt body. However, the unusual thing is that the bolt body was renumbered in an unconventional manner that doesn't align with what I'd expect the Germans to have done. I wanted to reach out with some photos of it and see if anyone has seen this pattern of numbering on German mausers and why it may have been done.

Thanks all
William

Also if someone can help withe police unit markings that would be hugely appreciated.

Most plausible resolution:

Well I had some downtime to really dig into and try and find some Info on Turkish k98as in the suggestion this bolt may be Turkish which didn't make sense initially. I found that they had a carbine model 1938 called the 38/46. Seems these rifles were both made in house with their own style of turned down handle. But they also made these 38/46s from old k98as given to turkey by Germany in ww1. Looking at what info I can dig up on these surprisingly uncommon Turkish mausers reveals the bolts are numbered in almost exactly the same manner to the one in my k98a. I think it's safe to say that the bolt in the rifle is a real German k98a bolt, but unfortunately is not the bolt put into the rifle when it was brought home from ww2, but was actually added after the fact stateside. This Mauser came out of a pretty large collection. And the previous owner likely got it with what I would figure was a k98k bolt in it, but he knew it wasn't technically correct to the rifle though that may have just been how it was brought back. He eventually found an actual k98a bolt that was out of a Turkish model 38/46 and said "that's as close as I'm going to be able to get for now" and put it in. I guess it's still good to have the right bolt despite its origin and markings not being completely right. Glad to have finally figured out a reasonable story to this weird bolt. I'll still post pictures of the bolt fully torn down when I get a chance. Between the weird new numbers, and the fact none of the bolt parts match each other this is almost certainly the story for the bolt. Now the question is, do I track down an unturked k98a bolt to put in this rifle to make it more authentic, or do I leave this be as is cause now I have a reasonable story behind the bolt? Thanks all for the input.

Here's a photo reference of a Turkish k98az that shows the bolt being numbered in a very similar to nearly exact manner.

https://www.libertytreecollectors.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=1829

 

[WDL0209]

Hello! I wanted to make a post both showing off, and asking about the numbering on my kar98s bolt. I picked up this 1915 Erfurt kar98a for probably more than it's worth ($1125) but I was infatuated with it's cool history and really don't regret it at all. The gun is a ww1 survivor which went into Weimar service and issued to the police and a police unit marking was placed on the takedown disk. The gun is completely matching, including the stock which is not cut with finger grooves which checks out with the build date of 1915. But it did get the takedown disk later on. The gun did go through a Weimar rework and received a bolt hold open follower modification, But the stock was not replaced which is really neat and is also matching to the gun and is likely the same stock the gun was built with and served with all its life. The handguard, though cracked is also matching. The stock also has an H carved into the stock, for whatever reason, and the 1920 Weimar property stamp. What's super neat is the very faded but visible star of David very lightly carved into the stock, I want to believe this was done during it's time in Germany. If so, would be a really cool little piece that is special for fairly obvious reasons for what was happening in Germany at the time. The sling is reproduction and the bayonet is a super rusty cutdown sawback which is pretty neat to display with the rifle. The only part of this rifle that doesn't match though is the bolt. Which is still all German parts as evident by the Prussian eagle stamp on the bolt body. However, the unusual thing is that the bolt body was renumbered in an unconventional manner that doesn't align with what I'd expect the Germans to have done. I wanted to reach out with some photos of it and see if anyone has seen this pattern of numbering on German mausers and why it may have been done.

Thanks all
William

Also if someone can help withe police unit markings that would be hugely appreciated.

As requested. I've attached photos of EVERY stamp I could find on all parts of the bolt. Though I'm still leaning towards Turkish for it's origin, there is not a single Turkish mark on the bolt I can identify. If there's anything that jumps out at you and you know more than I do, please let me know.

 

[WDL0209]

It has a property (1920) stamp. Turkey is not likely.

What you have depends on numerous good pictures, these are inadequate

Updated photos of the bolt have been posted.

 

[WDL0209]

Highly unlikely that that bolt was numbered in Germany. Probably sold to a different country post-Weimar service or a bad hump job.

The unit mark is interesting-- and not 100% sure on it. If it is police, my guess would be maybe a fahrer (driver) unit within Schutzpolizei district, maybe Aurich. If it's Imperial era, S.A. would normally mean a signal battalion, but the "F" would be a bit confounding there.

To Loewe's point, more pictures might help.

Updated photos of the bolt are posted.

 

[Loewe]

Updated photos of the bolt have been posted.

I didn't mean the bolt... that is not German re-numbering. That is not an issue (possibility).

Clues maybe derived from the actual rifle, nothing is gained by further pictures of the bolt (it is an altered German bolt by a foreign entity), but it matters little if you are unwilling to show relevant pictures.

***Show relevant pictures of the said rifle or you will get no worthwhile answers. (of 22 pictures you might as well have posted one or two and received the same possible answers- 19-20 pictures were pointless, the bolt was originally from an wartime Erfurt 98a but was "non-German" altered). This is not meant personal, but these types of posts are annoying, soliciting answers but reluctance to provide relevant details, besides the obvious (lack of reciprocity) it ignores the impossibility (means) of accurate answers...

 

[chrisftk]

Updated photos of the bolt are posted.

Thank you for doing this-- it's an Erfurt bolt (you can tell by the fireproof being the "chicken" eagle)-- but aside from that, it's been renumbered somewhere other than Germany.

I'll expand a little bit on Loewe's prior reply-- there's a general list of pictures that always help the membership here provide answers-- forgive any frustration from him, as we encounter this a lot-- folks post 30 photos and maybe get 2 or 3 of the things we are looking for.

The best itemization of the "money shots" for most rifles is as follows: Right side stock (showing clear acceptance markings and cypher), underside of bolt. right side of receiver showing acceptance, left side of receiver showing SN and fire proof. Barrel acceptance and code (most of the time under the wood line), receiver face, bolt SN, stock wrist (behind rear screw) and the keel of the stock showing SN and acceptance. Finally, any unit markings--- Anything beyond that is a bonus.

I'll reiterate, despite the renumbered bolt, it's a cool rifle with a neat unit mark!

 

[WDL0209]

I didn't mean the bolt... that is not German re-numbering. That is not an issue (possibility).

Clues maybe derived from the actual rifle, nothing is gained by further pictures of the bolt (it is an altered German bolt by a foreign entity), but it matters little if you are unwilling to show relevant pictures.

***Show relevant pictures of the said rifle or you will get no worthwhile answers. (of 22 pictures you might as well have posted one or two and received the same possible answers- 19-20 pictures were pointless, the bolt was originally from an wartime Erfurt 98a but was "non-German" altered). This is not meant personal, but these types of posts are annoying, soliciting answers but reluctance to provide relevant details, besides the obvious (lack of reciprocity) it ignores the impossibility (means) of accurate answers...

Well my apologies, I misunderstood what you wanted more pictures of. I felt the story of the rifle itself is pretty cut and dry. The bolt was the outstanding part that I had concerns on. And that's what I was trying to get answers on. Everything on the rifle itself is correct numbering wise, and nothing g is renumbered in a manner similar to the bolt. I apologize for being annoying, but it was the history of the bolt I was trying to to get an answer on to figure out where it came from, and if it possibly came from something else stateside, which after a bunch of reading, I found the absolute most likely source.

 

[heavy_mech]

I figured someone would get the Imperial stamps. I wonder how the extractor got there. Maybe nothing other than a post war, stateside replacement of a damaged one?