Mysterious M98/17 rifle, any information?

S

scani

Member
I just received a copy of Rifle&Carbine98 by Dieter Storz, and saw the Mauser 1918 rifle which was briefly described as “Mauser Militärgewehr Modell 1917/18” designed by Fidel Feederle in Collector Grade’s Sturmgewehr! From Firepower to Striking Power.
55C285E2-0C5D-4FB1-A037-1BA9D143A3AF.jpeg
Additionally, Dieter’s book claims it as Mauser Oberndorf’s own design, while the M98/17 rifle was lost.
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And here are some other posts that I’ve read about Mauser 1918 and M98/17.
Gunboards post about Steyr M30S
Gunboards post about Steyr M17/30
Does the Mauser 1918 or the M98/17(which is a different design) have any connection with later designs such as Steyr M30S, M17/30, Hungarian trial 33M, and Chinese Manchurian Liao Type13?
 
scani said:
Does the Mauser 1918 or the M98/17(which is a different design) have any connection with later designs such as Steyr M30S, M17/30, Hungarian trial 33M, and Chinese Manchurian Liao Type13?
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Personally I don't think so since the Steyr M.17/30 is based on the Steyr M.17 rifle and "only" updated to the S-caliber of 1930, plus adding that the M.17 is based on the M.15 rifle. There were various Austrian experiments which had once more and less design details of Mauser and Mannlicher (in this context referring not only to the straight pull only, but also to Mannlicher-Schönauer), but always were kind of hybrids. Speaking of the Steyr M.15 rifle in 8x57 caliber, a Mannlicher-Schönauer rifle with Mauser elements, such as thumbhole for stripper clip and Mauser bolt catch and bayonet lug, securing screws for magazine guard screws, additional swivel hole in front of trigger guard, ... you can compare here: https://www.gunboards.com/threads/steyr-m-15-experimental-rifle.1196145/#post-10775658

IMHO it seems the Germans did a bit of what the Austrians did: see what they liked on "foreign rifles" and added this to their own (= Mauser) action. The butt stock configuration of the particular rifle personally reminds me even a bit more of the Enfield SMLE than the M.1895 of the Austrians (since the very bottom of pistol grip is almost facing forward than rounded to the back).
 
Absolut said:
Personally I don't think so since the Steyr M.17/30 is based on the Steyr M.17 rifle and "only" updated to the S-caliber of 1930, plus adding that the M.17 is based on the M.15 rifle. There were various Austrian experiments which had once more and less design details of Mauser and Mannlicher (in this context referring not only to the straight pull only, but also to Mannlicher-Schönauer), but always were kind of hybrids. Speaking of the Steyr M.15 rifle in 8x57 caliber, a Mannlicher-Schönauer rifle with Mauser elements, such as thumbhole for stripper clip and Mauser bolt catch and bayonet lug, securing screws for magazine guard screws, additional swivel hole in front of trigger guard, ... you can compare here: https://www.gunboards.com/threads/steyr-m-15-experimental-rifle.1196145/#post-10775658

IMHO it seems the Germans did a bit of what the Austrians did: see what they liked on "foreign rifles" and added this to their own (= Mauser) action. The butt stock configuration of the particular rifle personally reminds me even a bit more of the Enfield SMLE than the M.1895 of the Austrians (since the very bottom of pistol grip is almost facing forward than rounded to the back).
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That’s neat. Thanks for sharing. So the M17/30 and the M30S were the same model? And they developed to the 33M which failed to the 35M? Have you ever seen photo of the M17? Here’s what I have but I don’t know which source it comes from.179663B8-6C58-43CF-971A-71087D421668.jpeg
 
Absolut said:
Personally I don't think so since the Steyr M.17/30 is based on the Steyr M.17 rifle and "only" updated to the S-caliber of 1930, plus adding that the M.17 is based on the M.15 rifle. There were various Austrian experiments which had once more and less design details of Mauser and Mannlicher (in this context referring not only to the straight pull only, but also to Mannlicher-Schönauer), but always were kind of hybrids. Speaking of the Steyr M.15 rifle in 8x57 caliber, a Mannlicher-Schönauer rifle with Mauser elements, such as thumbhole for stripper clip and Mauser bolt catch and bayonet lug, securing screws for magazine guard screws, additional swivel hole in front of trigger guard, ... you can compare here: https://www.gunboards.com/threads/steyr-m-15-experimental-rifle.1196145/#post-10775658

IMHO it seems the Germans did a bit of what the Austrians did: see what they liked on "foreign rifles" and added this to their own (= Mauser) action. The butt stock configuration of the particular rifle personally reminds me even a bit more of the Enfield SMLE than the M.1895 of the Austrians (since the very bottom of pistol grip is almost facing forward than rounded to the back).
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Btw I’m getting confused that the M17 was based on the M15. The M15 was a combination of M-S action with Mauser feeding mechanism, while the M17 is kind of inverted in deisgn by combining Mauser action with Mannlicher feeding mechanism. Probably the M15 was the precursor of 35M?139E1B48-6B1A-4200-BA30-BC62CD51763F.jpeg
 
Jon Speed sent me the following comments:

I saw talks on the 98k site Imperial section on the Mystery 17/18 rifle showed in Storz book and would add that Mauser made about 25 examples most for tests of Rifle designated as Mauser 17/18 . Here is only existing Glass plate image of a SN 23 system in the White. I have seen in Mauser Sales book for last period of WW1 the entry for this model. Please add this to talks. The Mauser had Nothing to do with later Steyr models like 1930 etc. From this Mauser model a newer version was made in 1929 that was an improoved model but the worlds financial crisis ended this program although a few samples were sold to Brazil in hopes of getting contract etc. In 1933 an even new vesrion Sporter was made with only 1 prototype exisiting . Thanks, Regards, Jon

Just a note to my last email please add to talk that the Designer of the 17/18 rifle was Fidel Feederle to guy who was main designer of C 96 The 1918 Tank rifle etc. Thanks , Jon10 C&E.jpg
 
Fal Grunt said:
Jon Speed sent me the following comments:

I saw talks on the 98k site Imperial section on the Mystery 17/18 rifle showed in Storz book and would add that Mauser made about 25 examples most for tests of Rifle designated as Mauser 17/18 . Here is only existing Glass plate image of a SN 23 system in the White. I have seen in Mauser Sales book for last period of WW1 the entry for this model. Please add this to talks. The Mauser had Nothing to do with later Steyr models like 1930 etc. From this Mauser model a newer version was made in 1929 that was an improoved model but the worlds financial crisis ended this program although a few samples were sold to Brazil in hopes of getting contract etc. In 1933 an even new vesrion Sporter was made with only 1 prototype exisiting . Thanks, Regards, Jon

Just a note to my last email please add to talk that the Designer of the 17/18 rifle was Fidel Feederle to guy who was main designer of C 96 The 1918 Tank rifle etc. Thanks , JonView attachment 333412
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Great information! How about Chinese Type13 Mukden Mauser? Did it base on Mauser 17/18?
 
FIB48 said:
The design comes directly from Steyr. I bet there's linage from Mauser to Steyr then to Mukden.

I have a drawing that depicts a action design combining features of Mauser 17/19 and of Steyr. The drawing is from a Chinese book published in 1922.
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Oh nice. Could you post the drawing please?
 
pre98.com

SOLD SCARCE AND SELDOM SEEN "MUKDEN MAUSER" MANCHURIAN TYPE 13 INFANTRY RIFLE.....ALL MATCHING AND SHARP! - Pre98 Antiques

This is a rifle that rarely ever is seen and never this nice. We have what most collectors call a
pre98.com
I don’t see how a connection between the Mauser 17/18 pictured by Jon Speed can be made to the Mukden type 13. It does not have a removable magazine or elongated trigger guard. It could have been derived from any popular Mauser design. It even has Arisaka features. Would also like to see the drawings.
 
Actually I was a bit inaccurate in my reply. The M.17 is not really based on the M.15 rifle, but based on the experiences/requirements which led to neglecting the M.15 rifle. Of course the changeover to a different caliber while being in a war is not really possible.

The sometimes "M.30S" named rifle IMHO is the M.17/30 rifle (well, M.17 in S-Caliber got introduced 1930, hence M.17/30, so that might be why some instead say "30S"?). Original Austrian period documents also speak on "M.17/30 Gewehre" (of which by the way were made rifles and carbines, just to add a bit more confusion, and those itself in different swivel configurations, ..).

The Hungarian 33M rifle is IMHO a truly Hungarian design. It is closer to the Hungarian 35M than to the Mannlicher 1895 action, but also has some weird features that the M.17/30 rifle has, such as dustcover (which, with the 33M, is truly over-complicated). I may not tell too much, but there was a video taken on a 33M rifle which shows a lot of its design, not sure though when a popular Youtube gun channel will put it online.

Re Steyr and China: Steyr, for what I know, delivered the machines for the Steyr straight pull actions to China, therefore those also must had gotten some blueprints to be able to make these rifles. I though think we are currently mixing in a whole lot of different rifle designs and we risk to confuse them.
 
Re-reading the thread I forgot to mention the most obvious: given the dates (M.17/30 based on M.17, and M.17 being result of M.15 and as the name suggests being development of 1917 and 1915 - and M.98/17 rifle - also as the name suggests - dating to 1917) I therefore do not think that there is much of a connection between the M.17/30 and M.98/17. At least
scani said:
Does the Mauser 1918 or the M98/17(which is a different design) have any connection with later designs such as Steyr M30S, M17/30, Hungarian trial 33M, and Chinese Manchurian Liao Type13?
Click to expand...
the bold marked part for the Steyr rifles is impossible. For the Hungarian 33M I consider the same (though I cannot outrule this), and can't speak for the Chinese rifle.
 
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