Mystery/Unusual Police Werder "ST" # 64

[chrisftk]

This was an odd duck I picked up randomly from a friend a year or two ago. I have a couple other Werder carbines, but I can't quite figure this one out. It's in the police/gendarmerie pattern, but it's marked and serialized in a different manner. For comparison, here is my more typical one:

M69 Werder Gendarmerie Carbine

As you've probably seen, I enjoy going back into the antique breech loaders. Werders, like needle rifles are a passion. The last Bavarian Werder I needed for my collection was the M69 Gendarmerie Carbine. These are the rarest Werder variant with approx 2,600 made, according to production...

www.k98kforum.com

This one has a circled "ST" stock cartouche and an "ST" prefix on the SN. The two things in conjunction make me think that this was perhaps a secondary or tertiary contract for an organization or some other type of police.. It is not familiar to me though, so any thoughts would be welcomed.

 

[joryfreeburg]

Interesting rifle Chris….. you have a wide ranging collection

 

[chrisftk]

Interesting rifle Chris….. you have a wide ranging collection

Thanks man. It's not often that I come up with a find that leaves me scratching my head, but this is definitely one of them. Nothing turned up, even in my German language sources.

 

[OnlyMil]

I know close to nothing about these... but damn, look at that lock work. So many springs and small parts.

 

[biggymu]

They were ahead of their time using modular removable trigger packs assembled elsewhere.
Have you ever tried substituting one for another?

 

[chrisftk]

I know close to nothing about these... but damn, look at that lock work. So many springs and small parts.

They were ahead of their time using modular removable trigger packs assembled elsewhere.
Have you ever tried substituting one for another?

Thanks guys-- yeah, I have tried to swap them and it works. The only thing to note is that the pistol and carbines used a slightly smaller action so they do not interchange with the infantry rifle.

Also important to keep in mind on the infantry rifles which caliber the action is configured for. They made some modifications to convert to Mauser ammo.

These actions were constructed by firms with a specialization in small precision machining, something that the Amberg arsenal just did not have at the time. They would have been constructed as a complete unit and then serialized to the rifle when they were assembled.

 

[Cyrano4747]

These actions were constructed by firms with a specialization in small precision machining, something that the Amberg arsenal just did not have at the time. They would have been constructed as a complete unit and then serialized to the rifle when they were assembled.

Interesting. Is this lack also the reason Amberg farmed out rear sight components when they moved to the m71?

 

[chrisftk]

Interesting. Is this lack also the reason Amberg farmed out rear sight components when they moved to the m71?

I can't conclusively say, but that would make sense.

 

[7up]

I had on more than one occasion a chance to get one of these with same mark from a dealer, and I passed on it. Then it ended up years later in holts and went for lots (much more) money !!

 

[AndyB]

On a auction is described: " SERIAL NUMBER 2121 BARREL 21 1/2" CALIBER 11MM WERDER ( 11X50R) MANUFACTURED 1874.The Gendarmerie Werder Short Rifle. The Bavarians contracted with August Francotte of Liege for manufacture and ordered 2,639 such rifles. The Werder Gendarmerie rifle M1869/73 was not only carried by the police, but also by customs formations. In 1874 an additional 600 rifles were ordered to equip the Zollwache (customs officers) as well as 100 more rifles for the General Customs Administration. In 1875, 50 more rifles were ordered for the rural police. Thus the total production of the Gendarmerie rifle officially came to 3,389 examples. Being an exceptionally rare Bavarian Carbine manufactured by August Francotte and so marked on top of barrel, with matching serial numbers. Also has the "GF" inspection of the receiver bridge" there is Francotte on barell but no ST. in front of serial, could be ST. was added later.

Werder Carbine for Bavarian Gendarmerie & Landespolezei 1869

Very Rare Werder Carbine for Bavarian Gendarmerie & Landespolezei 1869.Werder Carbine: Bavarian Gendarmerie model 1869., No.: 2802. Calibre 11.5x35. Less than 2700 ordered with lock/action parts from Gewehr Fabrik Amberg, passed via M.A.N of Nuremberg, to Amberg for Proof abd then for final...

www.smitharms.co.uk

 

[7up]

Also had the opportunity to buy that as well, (had in my hands!!)

 

[chrisftk]

I had on more than one occasion a chance to get one of these with same mark from a dealer, and I passed on it. Then it ended up years later in holts and went for lots (much more) money !!

Interesting-- looks identical to mine. Much higher SN though.

On a auction is described: " SERIAL NUMBER 2121 BARREL 21 1/2" CALIBER 11MM WERDER ( 11X50R) MANUFACTURED 1874.The Gendarmerie Werder Short Rifle. The Bavarians contracted with August Francotte of Liege for manufacture and ordered 2,639 such rifles. The Werder Gendarmerie rifle M1869/73 was not only carried by the police, but also by customs formations. In 1874 an additional 600 rifles were ordered to equip the Zollwache (customs officers) as well as 100 more rifles for the General Customs Administration. In 1875, 50 more rifles were ordered for the rural police. Thus the total production of the Gendarmerie rifle officially came to 3,389 examples. Being an exceptionally rare Bavarian Carbine manufactured by August Francotte and so marked on top of barrel, with matching serial numbers. Also has the "GF" inspection of the receiver bridge" there is Francotte on barell but no ST. in front of serial, could be ST. was added later.

Werder Carbine for Bavarian Gendarmerie & Landespolezei 1869

Very Rare Werder Carbine for Bavarian Gendarmerie & Landespolezei 1869.Werder Carbine: Bavarian Gendarmerie model 1869., No.: 2802. Calibre 11.5x35. Less than 2700 ordered with lock/action parts from Gewehr Fabrik Amberg, passed via M.A.N of Nuremberg, to Amberg for Proof abd then for final...

www.smitharms.co.uk

Thanks Andy-- it's possible the ST was added later, but looking at the other one 7Up posted, it looks to be a factory marking, unless the stock was sanded down before the ST mark was added. My other police/gendarmerie werder has a Francotte cartouche on the right side of the stock.

Thanks for weighing in, both of you!