P35p Radom - help please?

Z

ZF41 K98k

Senior Member
Hello,

I am in need of some help with this one, just been offered it and I really like it - but don't know much about these. This was just rediscovered in a loft this year (along with it's holster, 9mm boxes etc) and theres a few other bits and the story of where it was captured and how it was brought back etc etc - with provenance too - but that aside I just want to focus on the pistol itself for now and whether that checks out ok?

I notice it only numbered once to the outside. Bluing looks good and is definitely original, but looks to be 'two tone'. Markings and waffenampts are crisply stamped.

Any opinions and further (production dates etc?) info would be great. The seller is the nephew of the veteran who brought it back, but was found in his Dad's loft this year, he (like myself) doesn't know a whole lot about these. I have no doubt it's original, just want to get some opinions on it please.

Thank you for your time.

Pictures:
 
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the dual tone wouldn't really bother me all that much. But Radom slides are numbered internally.
Pull the slide back all the way and lock it. Flip it upside down and look inside. The #'s should be visible.
Also the barrel is numbered on lock block lug. Also the pistol need to be apart to see this..

482 would be the first no-letter block in german production. It should have a slotted recoil spring housing.
 
Hi Mauser thanks for the help, much appreciated. I'm going to see it on Monday so I'll be able to check then on those areas. The dual tone finish doesn't bother me at all either, in fact it's one of the main things that drew me into this one, as well as the provenance.

Should the mag be waffenampt or can these be plain unmarked? Also, when you say it is the first no-letter block under german production, I assume that means this is one of the earliest?? Made in 1939?

Thanks again, I'll let you know how I get on with it. :thumbsup:
 
ZF41 K98k said:
Hi Mauser thanks for the help, much appreciated. I'm going to see it on Monday so I'll be able to check then on those areas. The dual tone finish doesn't bother me at all either, in fact it's one of the main things that drew me into this one, as well as the provenance.

Should the mag be waffenampt or can these be plain unmarked? Also, when you say it is the first no-letter block under german production, I assume that means this is one of the earliest?? Made in 1939?

Thanks again, I'll let you know how I get on with it. :thumbsup:
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That is a very unusual pistol. Those odd grips are occasionally seen and I am not sure if anyone ever figured out if they are field replacements, original, handmade??? There is no Nazi inspection on the frame, which is very unusual but possible with so early of a pre-Alpha pistol. Check all the numbers you can find, especially the slide and barrel. Is it slotted on the main spring housing?

As far as date, it appears as if Radom remained fairly inactive for a period and restarted pistol production in late 1941 following the invasion of Russia.

I would post it on gunboards, Jan Still Luger forum. The most knowing are there in number, including several guys in Poland that are extremely obsessed with these pistols.

Very interesting pistol.
 
Thank you Mike, that explains most of the trouble I've been having because none of my searches for info/pics on these Radoms have turned up anything similar to this.... If I get it then obviously I'll get to know the provenance and all the other accessories with it, maybe that and the story might shed some light on things, who knows.

Worth looking into more I think and I'll try and register on that other site to see what they think too. Thanks again, great help on here as usual :thumbsup:
 
To add further I can pretty much guarantee the pistol is a mixmaster and is basically a shooter in the U.S. I would value it @ no more that 500-500 But, the market in Europe Im sure is different so I cant speculate that.
 
Shot in the dark here;

Being its so "odd" to some here, could this of been one of the Radom's put together by the resistance/Home Army with parts smuggled out of the factory?

It's claimed several hundred were assembled this way, Even when the German's recognized this problem, and moved barrel production and final assembly to Steyr, underground barrel production was started.

Just a thought, not an Expert on these...
 
I think there's more to this one. What is the stamping on the right side of the slide just in front of the serrations? It appears to be a cursive DA 45. Can you confirm this? Take the grips off and check the frame, main spring housing and the grip safety. Check inside of slide and barrel too.
 
I can't say as to whether numbers match or not yet, but it is as it was found (captured) and stored in this guys loft since. It was captured in occupied France (not sure exactly where or how as I don't have full provenance details yet) but I assume that rules out any chance of it being resistance made since it was in German hands.

All I can say for sure at the minute is that it's 'as was' from the battlefield in France. Hopefully find out more soon. That DA15 mark is UK proof house stamp (for 2015) as it's only just been found again after all these years when the house was being cleared.

Thanks again
 
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I looked in York's book.

He considers checkered wood grips to be field replacements. Those are not exactly like any he has pictured.

He has serial number 19 pictured. It lacks markings except the lucky charms Polish subinspectors. No Waa anywhere, no 2 in a circle, blank slide, no lanyard. Barrel is numbered 20, I can not make out the slide number, if any. Theory is that it was assembled as the invasion of Poland was taking place.

Next one pictured is 204 and is like your example. No Frame WAa77 but is on slide twice with Nazi firing proof between them. Like your frame, no markings except serial number and Lucky charms. No lanyard. Plum colored finish "which is known to occur in this range".

The earliest P35(p) marked pistol he has is 1278.

There are some weird things on these early pistol. One has a commercial eagle n and serial 0108. Other than the Polish slide legend, not much else, has a lanyard but oddest is no finger relief cuts which continued into first K block of regular production.
 
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Thanks for that Mike, that seems to clear it all up. Sounds like the frame and slide will in fact match then which is great news, but of course I'll still check it when I see it.

Also would this mean that this one is the earliest known "P35p" marked Radom then?!

Great info and I'm very grateful for you taking the time to post it up here. Thank you
 
ZF41 K98k said:
Also would this mean that this one is the earliest known "P35p" marked Radom then?!
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If the slide matches the frame, it would be very early. I have been following this and this is an incredible pistol. I am looking forward to more information and photos.
 
ZF41 K98k said:
Thanks for that Mike, that seems to clear it all up. Sounds like the frame and slide will in fact match then which is great news, but of course I'll still check it when I see it.

Also would this mean that this one is the earliest known "P35p" marked Radom then?!

Great info and I'm very grateful for you taking the time to post it up here. Thank you
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If the slide is numbered matching, that is great. If it is not numbered, that would be second best since #19 is not. If it is mismatched, it is probably assembled out of parts on hand and may or may not be original for such an early pistol, IMO. Number 19 has a barrel one number off. How far off the number is could matter. A known number mismatch, say with an A prefix, would be a probable mismatch. If the barrel matches number wise, again a great thing. No number, next best.

Quite frankly, so little is known on these, I am not sure anyone knows. York even uses theories. The non-std grips, probably armorer replaced could mean it was serviced in the field and anything else could also have been replaced. Some of the guys on Jan Stills could have more educated theories.

It would not surprise me to see the P35(p) marking on the slide to be out of serial number sequence as far as when it began. So many things in military pistols produced in wartime to not follow an exact and start/stop period. They were phased in or phased out, not a sharp beginning or ending.

More info would be great when you get it. I would register on Jan's forum as it is a bit slow and limited access for a short while.
 
Thanks Mike, I'm really hoping this one is matching numbers, but think I'll pick it up either way as I really like these Radoms now, plus vet bring back pieces over here are very rare, especially weapons!!!! Like chicken teeth.

I did ask the seller yesterday to see if he knew about the numbers situation, and apparently when he took into his local museum to have it checked out (they were the ones who have him advice on an asking price) but they also apparently said to him also that the numbers do match, as they stripped it down. We'll see on Monday.

In the meantime I've registered at JS Luger board but haven't received a confirmation email or notification that I've been 'moderated' to join. Will have to wait and see on that also over this weekend. Thanks again everyone
 
ugafx4 said:
If the slide matches the frame, it would be very early. I have been following this and this is an incredible pistol. I am looking forward to more information and photos.
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Looking into them I think all the Radoms are incredible! Will get you more info and photos as soon as I can, please bear with me. Thank you
 
Just picked it up, its got number MATCHING barrel and slide!! Will get more detailed pics and collate the info together to start a new thread on it.
 
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ZF41 K98k said:
Just picked it up, its got number MATCHING barrel and slide!! Will get more detailed pics together and collate the info together to start a new thread on it.
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Wonderful news.

The Radom is the most interesting 9mm handgun of WW2 era IMO. There are so many odd things that happened, a collector has years of stuff to look for.

It would appear that they were widely highly thought of and used by about every participant of the war. You will find them in British, German, French, Russian, and American museums, among others.

There is a good price available on York's book right now from the publisher and offered on Jan's. The book is not the best ever IMO but it is worth the price.
 
mike radford said:
Wonderful news.

The Radom is the most interesting 9mm handgun of WW2 era IMO. There are so many odd things that happened, a collector has years of stuff to look for.

It would appear that they were widely highly thought of and used by about every participant of the war. You will find them in British, German, French, Russian, and American museums, among others.

There is a good price available on York's book right now from the publisher and offered on Jan's. The book is not the best ever IMO but it is worth the price.
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Thanks Mike, I bought it without checking the interior numbers but when I got home and was able to sit down and take it apart I was thrilled with it as I'm sure you can imagine!

I'll check that book out, thanks. Still waiting on the luger forum as well...

Fubar no this is my first one. New pics soon
 
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