Personal vendetta against ghw2 ??

[Hambone]

OK, here's my evidence to support my view of DougB. He points to sole source authentication of C-SS (only Kelly H.'s books) as an excuse. And you also mentioned DougB's once close ties with XRFacts.


Prior to that, about five or six years ago, he was dazzled with Maui's XRF claims. Besides the XRFact cofounders, Doug B could have been considered an XRF lid testing insider, because of his participation providing lids for their baseline, and his proximity and relationship to Hicks and May.

Doesn't that merely confirm what we have been saying in DougB's favor? I don't think it can be said that there were not two more strident doubters of the XRFacts' hoax then me and tjg. I addressed all of this in detail with DougB, much of it privately. He argued in favor of it, but not blindly. He wanted to see if it had merit himself. He did see for himself and that showed him that we were right, and he admitted that. A person should be commended for seeing for themselves and not blindly accepting the arguments or pronouncements of "authorities". He had the same type epiphany with respect to the shampain ruin, and he took financial hits for supporting the truth. If anything, that screenshot supports DougB.

 

[tjg79]

tjg79
You're posting a mix of screen shots of old Doug B's comments and former opinions as if they're his current views with your highly biased and speculative assertions as to Doug B's intent and motivations. The result is that your narrative appears fabricated and it appears you have an agenda to smear Doug B by dredging up obsolete quotes. Is that fair? If Doug B admits that he was wrong and apologizes, which he has, then these types of criticisms don't appear relevant or fair. I think your negative bias towards Doug B is obvious and it appears that you haven't gotten over your previous disputes with him for which he has publically apologized to you. I can understand your feelings for being unfairly criticized and ostracized by Doug B over the C-SS issue when you were correct and produced the best evidence that C-SS lids were post-war fabrications, but Doug B capitulated on that issue and apologized.

You're implying that Hicks and Doug B both knew the C-SS lid was fake from the beginning, but I don't think that's the case. I believe they were both fooled by the spray-job. And, a big difference between Hicks and Doug B is that Doug B doesn't condone fakery; Hicks does.

Doug B has publically refuted the claims of David May's XRF lid testing and XRFacts. Prior to that, about five or six years ago, he was dazzled with Maui's XRF claims. Besides the XRFact cofounders, Doug B could have been considered an XRF lid testing insider, because of his participation providing lids for their baseline, and his proximity and relationship to Hicks and May. Would it be fair to criticize Doug B today for being dazzled by XRF lid testing five years ago after he's publically revealed how flaky and unreliable their lid XRF data was? I don't think it would be fair, because it doesn't reflect his current views and he has publically admitted he was initially wrong about XRF lid testing. It was easy for a non-technical type person to be dazzled by the XRFacts light show.




OK, here's my evidence to support my view of DougB. He points to sole source authentication of C-SS (only Kelly H.'s books) as an excuse. And you also mentioned DougB's once close ties with XRFacts.


Prior to that, about five or six years ago, he was dazzled with Maui's XRF claims. Besides the XRFact cofounders, Doug B could have been considered an XRF lid testing insider, because of his participation providing lids for their baseline, and his proximity and relationship to Hicks and May.

I don't see your point. I think what I posted is entirely consistent with the view that Hambone indicated. Doug B wasn't an XRFacts cofounder, but a guy with a good lid collection that the XRFacts cofounders needed to test their concept and establish their "standards" to be compiled into a database. I can understand how a non-technical guy could be fooled by a XRF demonstration, especially if his lids were being tested and he was told they all tested legit. The non-technical type guy would be dazzled by the demonstration if he was told that the demonstration was what museums do to determine authenticity. However, a non-technical guy with a good intellect watching maui perform XRF lid testing and then watching how maui makes his determination by comparing pie charts would start to have doubts if he was observing with the intent of trying to fully understand the test procedure. Doug B was initially fooled by the XRF light show, because of what he initially observed, but with further observations of XRF testing, the flaws of the test procedure became apparent. Doug B is one of the first, if not the first XRF lid testing observer, to have been initially impressed and then later retract his support or belief in XRF lid testing. Doug B was a big proponent of high magnification and he never thought XRF would or could replace high level magnification lid inspection. XRF was just another tool, until it became obvious the XRF was flawed and provided unreliable information.

 

[tjg79]

Doesn't that merely confirm what we have been saying in DougB's favor? I don't think it can be said that there were not two more strident doubters of the XRFacts' hoax then me and tjg. I addressed all of this in detail with DougB, much of it privately. He argued in favor of it, but not blindly. He wanted to see if it had merit himself. He did see for himself and that showed him that we were right, and he admitted that. A person should be commended for seeing for themselves and not blindly accepting the arguments or pronouncements of "authorities". He had the same type epiphany with respect to the shampain ruin, and he took financial hits for supporting the truth. If anything, that screenshot supports DougB.

I agree.

M45 must not be feeling very well. He's using screen shots to support his argument that actually refute his argument.

 

[M45]

Bravo tjg, Bravo!

Complain that I am not supporting my view of DougB, and then when I post evidence, claim that it supports your view and refutes mine!

I will say one thing about you guys, the love and forgiveness are thick in the air. But of course it is easy to be forgiving when you are not holding on to one of these 5K-25K jewels in your collections. (Do I understand correctly that you are not ?) That little fact has been brought up before and ignored. DougB's repeated "epiphanies" are not helping to refund the countless thousands cheated from collectors.

I suppose there are two ways to look at this situation. #1 is the view of the un-involved outsider looking in, seeing the terrible things that have happened, but seeing 'sincere' repentance worthy of redemption. Of course, that doesn't fix any real damage ($$$) but it makes some of us feel good.

#2 is the view of the victims, those poor souls who were duped into spending 4-5 figures for modern art. The C-SS fraud damage extends beyond the actual victims; it affects the entire hobby - every one of us in some way or another. And no matter how 'sincere' the penatants are, it is not translating into refund$. That's really the rub. Victims are often not consoled by mere 'epiphanies' or flip-flopping, or backtracking. Talk is cheap, and in this sense very literally true. And although I myself am not a holder of one of these Champagne-jewels, I am a victim in other ways, verbally abused, censored and banned to ensure my dangerous ideas (doubt about C-SS) did not upset the status quo that C-SS was a "textbook decal". And please don't bring on the councilors tjg; I have long gotten over the original disgust of those actions. I am now asking WHY were people just seeking the truth treated so by DougB if he was a seeker of truth himself.

 

[Hambone]

My observations of tjg are that he calls it as HE sees it. He's taken issue with me, and anyone else with whom he disagrees. He's just merely doing that here and we are agreeing not because of any other reason than it appears objectively obvious. I have no dog in this fight other than the truth.

DougB refunded in full at least one collector who bought a Champagne Rune from him, and DougB is stuck with it as Hicks won't refund DougB. That's pretty stand up, if you ask me. Most people were bamboozled by the Champagne Rune because it is in the Hicks book, Hicks issued COAs for them, Hicks claimed XRFacts' "science" confirmed them original, and of course, the waftarded attacked, ridiculed and threatened anyone who dared state otherwise or doubt (e.g., see the Nutmeg / " Vonrall " HicksGod post).

Think if of it like this: the Karem/Steves books are THE K98k books. Many of us have collaborated, etc. If according to The Books and research and our discussions, pronouncements, etc., the single rune rifles are SS contract, and I sell some of them as such for a premium, and then it is subsequently discovered by proof that the single runes were all popped on these rifles by some guy in Michigan from the 1970s-1990s, and I expose that, is it my fault then? Am I culpable, guilty of some offense, for believing and changing my mind when evidence proved to the contrary? If I was somehow complicit, why would expend large sums of my money and my time proving they were fakes, then refund those to whom I sold them?

 

[tjg79]

I think you turn into the Incredible Hulking M45 when you get an accidental dose of Doug B.

 

[tjg79]

Bravo tjg, Bravo!

Complain that I am not supporting my view of DougB, and then when I post evidence, claim that it supports your view and refutes mine!

I will say one thing about you guys, the love and forgiveness are thick in the air. But of course it is easy to be forgiving when you are not holding on to one of these 5K-25K jewels in your collections. (Do I understand correctly that you are not ?) That little fact has been brought up before and ignored. DougB's repeated "epiphanies" are not helping to refund the countless thousands cheated from collectors.

I suppose there are two ways to look at this situation. #1 is the view of the un-involved outsider looking in, seeing the terrible things that have happened, but seeing 'sincere' repentance worthy of redemption. Of course, that doesn't fix any real damage ($$$) but it makes some of us feel good.

#2 is the view of the victims, those poor souls who were duped into spending 4-5 figures for modern art. The C-SS fraud damage extends beyond the actual victims; it affects the entire hobby - every one of us in some way or another. And no matter how 'sincere' the penatants are, it is not translating into refunds. That's really the rub. Victims are often not consoled by mere 'epiphanies' or flip-flopping, or backtracking. Talk is cheap, and in this sense very literally true. And although I myself am not a holder of one of these Champagne-jewels, I am a victim in other ways, verbally abused, censored and banned to ensure my dangerous ideas (doubt about C-SS) did not upset the status quo that C-SS was a "textbook decal". And please don't bring on the councilors tjg; I have long gotten over the original disgust of those actions. I am now asking WHY were people just seeking the truth treated so by DougB if he was a seeker of truth himself.

I think you got that correct.

 

[Rev.Mike]

I have great respect for M45's knowledge and his work on lot numbers in relation to helmet types was ground-breaking. This has led to other "discoveries" and assumptions about these helmets as issued.

I also greatly respect DougB. My interactions with him were always positive and I was very sorry to see him abandon the hobby. I suppose he decided that life is too short to spend it arguing with the invincibly ignorant. However pulling all of his content from GHW2 was more than a bit extreme - not that he didn't have the right to do it.

Watching what has happened in the time since the expose' of CRSS helmets and the blather and infighting - and adding this to years of watching fraudulent helmets being praised has made me decide the time has come to leave this sandbox to the kids. Helmet collecting was fun and educational, but helmets are just things after all and we are only temporary custodians of them while we are here. I would advocate civil discourse in this rapidly declining hobby as I value friendships more than things.

 

[M45]

Rev, your knowledge and valuable interactions are respected as well. And if you choose to leave the 'sandbox', that is your choice. Nobody wants you to do that however. I can understand your feelings, but a great and terrible fraud has been perpetrated upon the helmet collecting community. This may have far reaching implications for many of those involved if there is ever an official investigation. (far beyond blather and infighting)

This fraud is not the fault of those simply wishing to discuss it in a manner contrary to the mainstream.



Watching what has happened in the time since the expose' of CRSS helmets and the blather and infighting - and adding this to years of watching fraudulent helmets being praised has made me decide the time has come to leave this sandbox to the kids.



The discussion since the expose' (blather and infighting as you say) seems to be bothering you more than the expose' itself. Discussions, both pro and con, are part of the democratic process and are allowed here as privilege of forum membership. I sincerely hope that you are not referring to my contrary viewpoints as blather and infighting. It is a contrary view that IMO has merit. Your statement below basically sums up the mainstream view and has been accepted as satisfactory and probably why most Champagne SS discussion has stalled.



I also greatly respect DougB. My interactions with him were always positive and I was very sorry to see him abandon the hobby. I suppose he decided that life is too short to spend it arguing with the invincibly ignorant. However pulling all of his content from GHW2 was more than a bit extreme - not that he didn't have the right to do it.



A lot of people have lost a lot of money is this fiasco, and you can be sure that the mainstream views are not going to pacify the huge dents in their wallets.

Thank you for compliments about lot# research. I believe it was the fuse that led to the lid being blown off of the C-SS fraud. There was no big bang immediately - it took some time for the fuse to reach the gunpowder. Although there were always doubts about C-SS (Walter B., ZAM and others) it was the hard evidence of lot# research that put teeth into those doubts IMO. Others simply built on that research.

And while DougB did the hobby a great service by his Champagne expose', it was also DougB who sent it to the nether world.

 

[tjg79]

I have great respect for M45's knowledge and his work on lot numbers in relation to helmet types was ground-breaking. This has led to other "discoveries" and assumptions about these helmets as issued.

I also greatly respect DougB. My interactions with him were always positive and I was very sorry to see him abandon the hobby. I suppose he decided that life is too short to spend it arguing with the invincibly ignorant. However pulling all of his content from GHW2 was more than a bit extreme - not that he didn't have the right to do it.

Watching what has happened in the time since the expose' of CRSS helmets and the blather and infighting - and adding this to years of watching fraudulent helmets being praised has made me decide the time has come to leave this sandbox to the kids. Helmet collecting was fun and educational, but helmets are just things after all and we are only temporary custodians of them while we are here. I would advocate civil discourse in this rapidly declining hobby as I value friendships more than things.

I agree.

My only criticism of M45 is that he attempts to post a revisionist untrue and unflattering characterization of Doug B's involvement with the XRF lid testing scam and the CRSS lid scam without any evidence to support his view. I think Doug B deserves a lot of credit for being an upstanding and honest member of the lid collecting community who has remarkably contributed to exposing these scams. I consider it a great loss to the lid collecting hobby that Doug B decided to quit.

If some members of the GHW2 forum have a personal vendetta against M45, that's unfortunate. But, I also think that M45 has a personal vendetta against Doug B and that is unfortunate as well.

Also, one other minor criticism of M45 is that he should learn to use the quote button so that his posts are easier to read.

Regards

 

[Hambone]

I support M45 and DougB for reasons stated more than several times. There is a reason that M45s lot study recommendation is a sticky here. I can't say enough good about his work. I would say that even if you have a passing interest in German WW2 helmets and don't have his studies that you're messing up. It is personally bothersome to see two people I like, whose work I respect, who are motivated by good reasons, who have done such good for the hobby, at apparent odds. Speaking with both of you privately, there is a common "enemy" here, and neither is either of you.

 

[tjg79]

I support M45 and DougB for reasons stated more than several times. There is a reason that M45s lot study recommendation is a sticky here. I can't say enough good about his work. I would say that even if you have a passing interest in German WW2 helmets and don't have his studies that you're messing up. It is personally bothersome to see two people I like, whose work I respect, who are motivated by good reasons, who have done such good for the hobby, at apparent odds. Speaking with both of you privately, there is a common "enemy" here, and neither is either of you.

I agree with that as well.

 

[Rev.Mike]

Agree with you Hambone & tjg.
M45 - I was not referring to you when I mentioned blather and infighting - I should have noted that mostly occurs on other fora. The sandbox is the hobby as a whole. I have long since given up active collecting, but when I was still buying I was blasted on more than one occasion for my opinions. This was a regular feature on WAF & GDC especially. I am by no means content with the status quo of the discussion regarding CRSS helmets. People have been defrauded out of thousands of dollars and the expose' clearly showed how corrupt the hobby has become, a far cry from my youth.
Some of the members of GHW2 offered to back a crowd funding attempt to help with legal action (I was among them). This has clearly gone nowhere and with no one being held accountable the victims need to start standing up and naming names. The CRSS promoters remind me of a certain former Secretary of State who appears to have Teflon underwear.
I fully agree that the lot number research was key to uncovering this nest of snakes and I hope some justice is done, but I can never look upon this hobby in the same way I once did.
Wishing all of you the best, I will continue to read and consider your opinions and research.

 

[Hambone]

You're appreciated here Rev. Mike.

 

[M45]

No problem, Rev.

I just thought we were having our own little Champagne SS investigation here. I realize that it is not an 'official' investigation by any means, but since it involves our hobby, it was interesting to be involved.

And while the two people I thought worthy of the magnifying glass have been 'redeemed' (as per here and elsewhere) and deemed essentially untouchable, the only areas left to investigate are really the creator E.D. and the 'chain of custody'.

If E.D. only created C-SS and never sold them as authentic, then he would be tough to go after. He could just claim that he was painting them up for friends and never intended that C-SS be sold as authentic.

Chain of custody is probably more wishful thinking and a pipe-dream than anything that could reasonably be done with any magnitude. For chain of custody to really work would require the cooperation of a bunch of people who do not want to cooperate for obvious reasons.

Since all of the above is a dead-end, our Champagne SS investigation (here and elsewhere) has effectively stalled. I just don't see it going much further unless the "big boys" get involved.

 

[tjg79]

I just thought we were having our own little Champagne SS investigation here. I realize that it is not an 'official' investigation by any means, but since it involves our hobby, it was interesting to be involved.

We should, because the real lid forums have dropped the ball. I would find it interesting. I know that it's not the focus of this forum, but a sticky CRSS thread to collect CRSS facts would be very interesting and an excellent reference. These types of investigations usually take years, but just like XRFacts, facts will always seem to trickle out without end.

And while the two people I thought worthy of the magnifying glass have been 'redeemed' (as per here and elsewhere) and deemed essentially untouchable, the only areas left to investigate are really the creator E.D. and the 'chain of custody'.

Who are the two people you are referring to? Hicks and Doug B? I think Hicks should be under a continuous microscope. He's got a lot to hide in my opinion. That's why he keeps a low profile. As for Doug B, his opinions and evolution as a serious student of the hobby are well understood. I don't think he has anything to hide. Doug B has acknowledged mistakes with XRF and CRSS. His explanations satisfy all my questions. I don't think anyone has been deemed untouchable if you've got valid new evidence.

If E.D. only created C-SS and never sold them as authentic, then he would be tough to go after. He could just claim that he was painting them up for friends and never intended that C-SS be sold as authentic.

I don't know anything about Mr. E.D.

Chain of custody is probably more wishful thinking and a pipe-dream than anything that could reasonably be done with any magnitude. For chain of custody to really work would require the cooperation of a bunch of people who do not want to cooperate for obvious reasons.

A decent chain of custody record would likely answer all the important questions. It's got to start somewhere. People's attitudes change over time. If a decent chain of custody investigation was initiated to collect information, it may eventually be the key, but will likely take years to achieve.

Since all of the above is a dead-end, our Champagne SS investigation (here and elsewhere) has effectively stalled. I just don't see it going much further unless the "big boys" get involved.

I don't think anything is dead-end as long as there are people interested in pursuing these matters.