Prototype ZF4 Scope Mount for K98K

[BowmanN94]

The attached photos are of the prototype ZF4 Scope mount designed for the K98K in the final year of WW2.
This particular mount was owned by Dr. Geoffery Sturgess and is shown Weaver's Book "Grands Hitler's Semu Auto Rifles" on page 268 and is verifiable by machining marks and the chain of ownership. I Obtained this scope and mount about a week ago from a an optics collector based out of florida.

This scope in particular is a lower setting scope on the mount than the final variants somewhere around 1cm shorter as a result of the design of the mount. It also has no manufacturing or acceptance marks such as waffentamps. The scope on it is marked 29749 ZF4 Gw dow. You'll also notice a focus on machining quality on this prototype than many later mounts didn't have.

To be honest I'm not quite sure what to do with it as it is an oddity given the rarity of K98 ZF4 Scope mounts to begin with, and then on top of that this being the prototype for said scope mount it gets a bit more unique. And sadly finding K98s that have the proper left said mount rail to accept ZF4 style mounts is difficult as well so far.

Attached you'll find a few photos of the mount and scope. (had to post as imugr link photo file sizes too big for forum)


ZF4 Prototype Scope Mount Album - IMUGR ALBUM OF SCOPE

 

[BowmanN94]

 

[moconfed]

A fellow board member recently posted a 44 Sauer that has the correct base.

 

[BowmanN94]

A fellow board member recently posted a 44 Sauer that has the correct base.

I reached out to him, is this the one that was sportorized post war most likely?

 

[moconfed]

Blackcactus posted it

 

[BowmanN94]

Blackcactus posted it

Found it, thanks a ton for the heads up.

I think he and I may have the answers to both our questions. Kind of wild he may have the rifle and I may have the scope from a prototype test run of scope mounts late war. Hopefully we can touch base with each other and see if there's something to this and verify weaver's claims

 

[Absolut]

Some question arise to myself when looking at your pictures that I would kindly like you to check upon. First, have you ever tried holding it next to a K98k receiver and see whether it would clear everything of the action (like if sitting in approximately the correct eye distance, could you still operate the bolt catch, use a stripper clip, ..?), as well as would you be able to aim with the scope since I would assume it would be sitting offset to the left, at least a little bit? I would appreciate a picture from the front or rear of the scope, to see if the scope is over middle or offsetting it, as I would expect it to be.

Also another - I know, pretty wild - thought: have you ever considered that it might also be working on the ZF4 rail of a MP43/1 since with that you should be able to either slide on from rear or from front? The fact the mount has the holding ribs for the ZF4 scope and therefore telling on which direction of the scope to be installed is correct could answer this.

What IMHO is odd is the fact that this mount obviously is milled from solid. Unlike the other K98k ZF4 mounts, which are always casted, just like the G/K.43 mounts.

PS: why did you actually buy it if you say you are not sure on what to do with it? Not that I wouldn't had done the same thing and asked myself that very question afterwards, still interesting to hear someone elses excuses to this

 

[BowmanN94]

Some question arise to myself when looking at your pictures that I would kindly like you to check upon. First, have you ever tried holding it next to a K98k receiver and see whether it would clear everything of the action (like if sitting in approximately the correct eye distance, could you still operate the bolt catch, use a stripper clip, ..?), as well as would you be able to aim with the scope since I would assume it would be sitting offset to the left, at least a little bit? I would appreciate a picture from the front or rear of the scope, to see if the scope is over middle or offsetting it, as I would expect it to be.

Also another - I know, pretty wild - thought: have you ever considered that it might also be working on the ZF4 rail of a MP43/1 since with that you should be able to either slide on from rear or from front? The fact the mount has the holding ribs for the ZF4 scope and therefore telling on which direction of the scope to be installed is correct could answer this.

What IMHO is odd is the fact that this mount obviously is milled from solid. Unlike the other K98k ZF4 mounts, which are always casted, just like the G/K.43 mounts.

PS: why did you actually buy it if you say you are not sure on what to do with it? Not that I wouldn't had done the same thing and asked myself that very question afterwards, still interesting to hear someone elses excuses to this

Scope front and back album

I hadn’t considered that it’s still sits lower than any optic mount I have ever seen for an MP43 or 44 though.

The vertical struts on it are just bizarrely short for no reason

I did quickly pull my K98 and put the scope to. It is honestly hard to tell, without knowing exactly where the rail sits it either barely lets everything clear or just doesn’t I can’t honestly tell and I only had a few minutes to look

It is completely possible that it is some weird scope for an MP43

I reached out to Weaver to see if maybe he had an idea or could at least tell me where he got the information that it was a k98 mount
Maybe he’ll get back to me?

To be honest, mp43 almost makes the most sense design wise

The difference between milling and casting I attributed this to being a prototype why make the cast if you don’t know if you’re going to do an actual production run? Just mill one or two prototypes for testing purposes.

 

[BowmanN94]

Scope front and back album

I hadn’t considered that it’s still sits lower than any optic mount I have ever seen for an MP43 or 44 though.

The vertical struts on it are just bizarrely short for no reason

I did quickly pull my K98 and put the scope to. It is honestly hard to tell, without knowing exactly where the rail sits it either barely lets everything clear or just doesn’t I can’t honestly tell and I only had a few minutes to look

It is completely possible that it is some weird scope for an MP43

I reached out to Weber to see if maybe he had an idea or could at least tell me where he got the information that it was a k98 mount
Maybe he’ll get back to me?

To be honest, mp43 almost makes the most sense design wise

The difference between milling and casting I attributed this to being a prototype why make the cast if you don’t know if you’re going to do an actual production run? Just mill one or two prototypes for testing purposes.

All this being said if the scope sits where I think it should in relation to the rail from that other post, then the eye relief works for the scope on a K 98

As for why I bought it?
It was there and I couldn’t figure out what its actual purpose was so I was really curious and honestly that was about as much thought that went to it. I figured worst case scenario I get a very nice well-maintained nearly crystal clear ZF4 and some really weird knock off mount or odd prototype

 

[Absolut]

There is this MP43 prototype picture where clearly the mount is experimental and having a third arm in the middle. I think the trials report said due to vibrations. Very short arms could be another way to approach that problem. But as said, you can pretty quickly check, if the scope in it may only be put in a way that the rail needs to be on the left side of a receiver (remember the locking lug on the scope mount and the corresponding cut on the scope), then this may be outruled very easy.
Thanks for the pictures from front and rear.

 

[BowmanN94]

There is this MP43 prototype picture where clearly the mount is experimental and having a third arm in the middle. I think the trials report said due to vibrations. Very short arms could be another way to approach that problem. But as said, you can pretty quickly check, if the scope in it may only be put in a way that the rail needs to be on the left side of a receiver (remember the locking lug on the scope mount and the corresponding cut on the scope), then this may be outruled very easy.
Thanks for the pictures from front and rear.

I haven’t found anyway to mount it on anything short of the left side. Even if I compare it to my G43 mount rail it seems designed for a left side mount.

I saw the MP43 one, but if I’m correct the rail on the MP43 for the three strut prototype wasn’t integrated but was spot welded on for testing purposes. So even that wasn’t a standard process yet.

I don’t have access to a MP43 to check, like I said with my k98k on the left side it may just fit if there was a rail there? Maybe?
Especially if the rail pulls the mount out away from the action just a small amount compared to just resting it on the stock like I have to do to really see how well it functions. It’s odd that it overhangs to the right so notably despite the vertical struts being so low. It’s lower than any sight mount I’ve seen for a 44 or 43. Almost impractically so.

It could be a MP43 prototype, I mean the mounts for 43s and 44s were rare to start with. I’d be surprised if this is one. But yeah shorter struts would probably cut down vibrations substantially. Maybe it’s a follow up iteration to resolve that and never went into full production because the only way on a MP43 to properly look down that scope would be to glue your face to the stock

I’d really like to know if Weaver got his info from Sturgess or if he just guessed. I can only assume he had some info about K98 & ZF4 testing since he specifies it was field tested only in the last two months of the war. Odd thing to through in there unless he got the info from somewhere or Sturgess

When I get home I’ll look at my G43 rail again and see if i can verify it is purely a left side mount

 

[BowmanN94]

There is this MP43 prototype picture where clearly the mount is experimental and having a third arm in the middle. I think the trials report said due to vibrations. Very short arms could be another way to approach that problem. But as said, you can pretty quickly check, if the scope in it may only be put in a way that the rail needs to be on the left side of a receiver (remember the locking lug on the scope mount and the corresponding cut on the scope), then this may be outruled very easy.
Thanks for the pictures from front and rear.

Okay so I pulled the mount out of my safe again, and looked at MP 43/1 rails.

This is still limited being a left side only scope mount due to the cut on the rails and the locking mechanism on the mount. Of that I have no doubt, at least for any standard ZF4 rail design this HAS to be a left side mount or the mount would not lock in place due to the angle of the cut mid rail for the lock. Unless there's another rail out there that was around for german optics like the ZF4 mounts/scopes i'd be the house that this has to be a left side only mount. Which is really only something I've ever seen on K98s and that's extremely rare and really just on the swept back models I believe.

And it can't be a left side MP 43 mount since that wouldn't work due to the charging handle and action.