Third Party Press

Questionable Camos

not a legitimate criticism. plenty of period photos of these in use.

Not enough wear on that paint either !!! Maybe after a while with his head bouncing on the deck.

Also there were lots of items we saw less of pre-interweb. I remember g43 scope mounts were near impossible to find and now they seem quite common because of the interweb.

We could only see stuff as far as our legs or cars could travel or what was in out local areas. Now it's a world wide view of what's out there. Lots of stuff seems more common and the prices have been effected.

Also more and more stuff is coming to light as the last of the ww2 vets are dying off and their families sell off there stuff. Guys that beat the bushes every weekend are finding great items weekly.

I don't buy into the conspiracy theory that baby boomers are faking camo's and are dumping them on unsuspecting collectors or pickers and then they are being shown and used to pushed what real camo's should look like?? Then to escalate the prices of these camo's ???
 
I don't buy into the conspiracy theory that baby boomers are faking camo's and are dumping them on unsuspecting collectors or pickers and then they are being shown and used to pushed what real camo's should look like?? Then to escalate the prices of these camo's ???


So you're convinced that nothing like that is happening ?


Back in 2011 when Champagne SS was being lauded with a few doubters, a statement like yours would have fit right in:

I don't buy into the conspiracy theory that baby boomers are faking SS HELMETS and are dumping them on unsuspecting collectors or pickers and then they are being shown and used to push what real SS HELMETS should look like?? Then to escalate the prices of these SS HELMETS ???


This is essentially what happened with Champagne SS; they were being faked (by baby-boomers ??) and dumped on unsuspecting? collectors/pickers/dealers who posted them on forms to show what "real" SS helmets looked like. With forum vettings, bogus vet provenance stories, ownership histories, COA's, found in 'textbooks' and promoted by well known personalities, the prices of Champagne SS helmets escalated.

But you don't think a similar fraud could be happening with camos. I see.
 
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I know stories are no longer to be believed due to all the lies that have been told.

Stories are either fiction or non-fiction.

When you post the KM coastal arty. helmet and say its fake and I say I know when and where it was just purchased two weeks ago by the poster I expect to be believed as I have NO reason to lie.

You think the owners baited the buyer with a fake helmet not knowing what it was other than "german helmet " along with all the patches metals and other crap that typically come in these vet lots. He paid them more than the asking price due to what it was and sent me photos before he bought it. He was curious as to the pattern. I have seen other KM camo's associated with Batteries in southern France.

Yes, the sham-pain-ruin ruse was done in a similar fashion over many many years. Even with the supposed polaroid of two SS sham-wow e-spezials on a picnic table.. Vet stories of helmets walked into shows ect.ect.ect. I have even seen this happen with badges as recent a two years ago @ Allentown when a guy walked up to us showing the pilot badge he had bought from a vet waiting in line to get into the show.. Dave looked at it and asked what he paid and said its a fake. The old guy was long gone.. I have also heard of other stories like this. So this does happen.
You can never let your a guard down. Its a jungle out there....
 
You should have a problem with broad sweeping rules like this. The thing is, it's not my rule. It is one of many factors to consider.


Prior to the internet era, camos were rather uncommon. You just didn't see them very often compared with overall numbers of German helmets in circulation.

This recent influx of minty camos does not make you suspicious because you have a nice M16 camo ? Because your M16 camo is in great condition, does that make you more accepting of the influx of 99% camos ?

Is this your "broad sweeping rule" that since original 99% camos exist we can be more accepting and tolerant of all of these 'woodwork finds' flooding forums ?

Because period photos (70+ years ago) feature 99% condition exotic camos does that mean that masses of them exist today in that condition ?

the problem is, the unbending rule that EVERY camo must show excessive wear really is just your rule.

as wayne mentioned, prior to the internet era you only saw what was in your little bubble. the internet has changed your perspective, not (necessarily) the number of camos. I dont know where you live, but you have to remember that some places in the U.S. are also much more target rich than others (i.e. east coast and midwest vs south and west coast). I do agree with you on this point....for someone like myself who has only ever bought one german helmet off the internet i rarely find camos. maybe 1 a year, many times none, and 2 if im lucky for a multitude of other helmets.

In reply to your questions on what i think:
1. "This recent influx of minty camos does not make you suspicious because you have a nice M16 camo ? Because your M16 camo is in great condition, does that make you more accepting of the influx of 99% camos ?"

Firstly, I dont accept 99% of camo's are real. I harbor no illusions that there are a huge amount of fakes out there ranging from terrible to excellent. And you've twisted this...I'm not the one applying my rules of authenticating with unbending power. My rules leave room for (very real) variables in period application, storage, time, use etc. My one helmet doesnt make me accept 99% of nice condition camos, it was displayed as an original helmet the defies the points you generally bring up as fakery and rules that YOU use to invalidate 99% of camos. Do I question excellent condition camos a lot harder? You bet i do. Is every last one fake? Probably not. But back to the original point, I'm still waiting for an explanation on how this obviously original camo, which breaks every one of your unbending rules, can exist.

2. "Is this your "broad sweeping rule" that since original 99% camos exist we can be more accepting and tolerant of all of these 'woodwork finds' flooding forums ?"

Answered above, and again, my rules are not broad sweeping and unflexing like yours. In fact, I dont believe I've ever argued with you about the mass of fake, sometimes minty, camos. I'm with you there. I've only ever argued that they can and do exist.

3. "Because period photos (70+ years ago) feature 99% condition exotic camos does that mean that masses of them exist today in that condition ?"

Not at all, in fact you are the one who says every camo today must exist exactly as it did 75 years ago sans exception. As I've brought up before, you leave no leeway for differences in storage, different climates, post war use by kids etc (or lack-there-of) just for a few examples. And again, you twist my point. I was not referring to the helmet condition, I was pointing out that your statement of "I saw this as a forgery because of the strong, distinct patters" is entirely invalidated by one period picture.
 
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Maybe,possibly,I think,look at this picture.

These are key words M45 uses all the time.

These terms are not indicative of any particular knowledge or assessment

They are possibilities.......not actual points

For the newbies, this is our concerns, no cover up, no crying over "bad lids"

When you critique something expensive opinions and speculation aren't good enough it's not cool.

If you don't know, don't comment.

Sure, it's s free country, doesn't mean you yell fire in a movie theatre.
 
Interesting comments from this website that focuses on Great War camo helmets - Walt Disney the German camo helmet forger!

In a 1963 Interview conducted with Walt Disney, which can be found in Neil Gabler’s, Walt Disney biography the future creator of Micky Mouse talked about his role in creating these war trophies.

The young Disney arrived in France with the Red Cross soon after the armistice. To earn extra money, on request Disney painted large French*Croix de Guerres*on the backs of his fellow service men’s leather jackets. He received 10-15 Francs a piece for the work. Soon Disney’s artistic skill came to the attention of one of his fellow servicemen, a boy from Georgia nicknamed Cracker. Cracker reasoned that troop replacements coming though Neufchateau would be willing to pay for “genuine” war trophies. Cracker had located a cache of German helmets in a supply dump outside of town. He brought the helmet back and had Disney paint camouflage scheme on them. After Disney applied the camouflage Cracker shot a few holes in the helmet, scuffed them about in the dirt, and created a convincing war relic. As planned the helmets were then sold off to the arriving American replacement troops and Cracker gave Disney a share of the profit.

Walt and Cracker could not have been the only people running this scheme there were probably many others. With the large number of American troops pouring into France in the late fall of 1918 and after the armistice the supply of real combat worn camouflaged helmets was probably quickly exhausted. The question that has to be asked is why not sell regular field gray helmet? Why was there a market for camouflaged helmets, especially “battle damaged” camouflaged helmets? The answer to this question maybe that the buyers of these helmets had seen many German troops in the last weeks of the war wearing camouflaged helmets. These men may have associated the camouflage helmets with combat, and possibly with more elite front line units such as the*Storm troopers*or Guard regiments. Certainly Cracker knew that camouflaged helmets would sell better then plan field gray helmets hence his agreement with Walt Disney.


https://alexanderandsonsrestorations.com/truth-camouflaged-helmets-great-war/
 
Interesting comments from this website that focuses on Great War camo helmets - Walt Disney the German camo helmet forger!

"The young Disney arrived in France with the Red Cross soon after the armistice. To earn extra money, on request Disney painted large French Croix de Guerres on the backs of his fellow service men’s leather jackets. He received 10-15 Francs a piece for the work. Soon Disney’s artistic skill came to the attention of one of his fellow servicemen, a boy from Georgia nicknamed Cracker. Cracker reasoned that troop replacements coming though Neufchateau would be willing to pay for “genuine” war trophies. Cracker had located a cache of German helmets in a supply dump outside of town. He brought the helmet back and had Disney paint camouflage scheme on them. After Disney applied the camouflage Cracker shot a few holes in the helmet, scuffed them about in the dirt, and created a convincing war relic. As planned the helmets were then sold off to the arriving American replacement troops and Cracker gave Disney a share of the profit."

Disney.jpg

That stuff has been faked since the moment the guns fell silent.

F.

Edit: I'd love to have a Disney helmet!
 
So if Walt Disney painted fake Camo Helmets at the end of WWI why couldn't some other enterprising individual have done the same at the end of WWII?

Is there German directives on Camouflage Helmet painting? Is there documentation on how many were made? If not couldn't many of the wartime Camo Helmets simply have been painted by an American with a Talent for Art?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 
Here you can see how old rust is putting up the new camo.

Now M45 will come and will say that yes, not good but our reasons are bad arguemented :laugh:

I also dont like the other camo. I think it has belonged to a well known dealer. He has had some more fakes in his site ( but not with paranoic history of M45), even i wrote to him to let him this, i remember that the helmet was removed.
 

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No matter what type of collecting we do in this hobby if an individual could make money off a less informed person they'll do it. I have come across SA daggers that have been faked since 1945 they were being made out of Spain. We say it all the time guys there's fakes everywhere fake rifles, fake helmets, fake bayonets, fake pouches, etc.

As soon as we put a value on these items individuals out there realize they could make a ton of money off people, just how it is. Collecting should be fun but you always have to remember it is a minefield out there you have to know what you're getting.

Hell I remember a couple months ago I got burned on some fake k98k stripper clips. Granted I only lost probably 20 bucks out of the whole deal but the point was if they're faking stripper clips what else are they faking.
 
Here you can see how old rust is putting up the new camo.

Now M45 will come and will say that yes, not good but our reasons are bad arguemented :laugh:

I also dont like the other camo. I think it has belonged to a well known dealer. He has had some more fakes in his site ( but not with paranoic history of M45), even i wrote to him to let him this, i remember that the helmet was removed.

Anyone who has owned a car up north knows that rust can grow under paint and will blister it then the paint falls off when it cracks and breaks. This is nothing new. If anyone thinks that rust cant grow under paint must re-think things..

As for the two WAF helmets I think the 1st has more of a chance than the second but, I wouldn't own either...
 

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