Questionable SS Helmets

[M45]

An 'authentic' SS helmet. It appears to be an hkp66 4625 M42. Too high on the lot number lists for decaled helmets. Also, the SE/hkp factory was not a known SS helmet producer, IMO. This among other problems with postwar paint and possibly fake decal.

eBay item number:171105782786 $4,500.

Authentic Single Decal German SS Combat Helmet

This helmet was returned from Germany by my Grandfather who was a RAF and USAAF pilot. It is 100% authentic and I have all the paper work to prove lineage, and authenticity. I will be posting more photos soon.

My Grandfather flew a Spitfire before the US entered the war, and a P-40 and P-47 after.

Currently the helmet is disassembled for preservation. If you wish it to be re-assembled, I can do so.


A few notes on the helmet:

1. The decal is authentic. These were lacquered and glazed on the helmet. The decals were a shiny silver color. This helmet would have been one of the last to have the decal, as they were too shiny and glinted in the sunlight.

2. The helmet was issued to an officer as indicated on the inside of the liner, and was likely that of a medical field surgeon.

3. Some say that all liners had a size stamp. This is not true. These were made at different factories. Uniformity was rare, especially as the war dragged on and materials ran short. Often soldiers would field modify equipment. A German Wehrmacht combat uniform in 1941 was not the same color as those in 1944. This was due to material shortages.

4. The Chin strap is not authentic. It was replaced with a strap used to restore authentic helmets, and not fool an individual into buying a forgery. The number on the chin strap is traceable to this fact. It was taken from a real German strap. My grandfather was a tanner and took very good care of the relic.

5. The ventilation holes on the helmet are grommets. This is difficult to see as multiple coatings of paint filled in the seams. However, close inspection will reveal the seams and crevice.

6. The outside of the helmet is smooth, the inside has a slight grainy texture. This is indicative of an authentic helmet.

7. Certain areas of the helmet have scratches that reveal a color variation, This variation ranges from brick red to a greenish color.

8. There are three brads holding the liner to the helmet. The brad in the rear is very strong, much more so than the other two. This was due to the fact that soldiers had to lay prone and this stressed the attachment of the liner to the helmet, thus it must be very sturdy.

This helmet is heavy when worn. Wear it with a latex head cover and imagine what it must have been like to wear this.

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me. You may ask for my phone number.

 

[mauser99]

phishing on ebay for a fool.. A twenty yard fake if not worse. Im happy I found just one legit m40 SS lid and really only wanted one textbook example. SS stuff in nature has been faked since the war ended.

 

[History]

It should take some one completley new to collecting or blind to buy that POS. That's not always the case.

Do guys who collect medals and uniforms dis-assemble them for storage? LMAO.

 

[ebeeby]

Item has been removed by ebay

 

[M45]

Its back up.


Ebay item# 171106171796

 

[ebeeby]

Removed again - missed it.

 

[M45]

M42 waffen ss s/d combat helmet

An apparently unissued M42 SD SS helmet. The decal appears to be an ET-SS type and the helmet appears to be a CKL model, which would match, in that sense. But there are still several red flags:

--unissued decaled SS helmet (most decaled helmets were issued by end of war)
--slate gray paint on CKL helmet (1944 and later paint, after SS decal drops of 1/11/43 ?)
--very poor decal application (would probably have been rejected by factory if factory applied)

http://web.iwebcenters.com/grenadiermilitaryantiques/item183901.ctlg

M-42 Waffen-SS S/D Combat Helmet
M-42 Waffen-SS S/D Combat Helmet. The helmet shell is marked with a very faint maker's code, and the size "66." It features a semi-rough field gray finish, which is approx. 99%. The finish shows almost no wear. The right side of the helmet features an SS Sig-Rune decal which is approx. 94% with several small chips along the mid and lower left edge. The helmet is complete with it's original, undamaged leather liner, which shows some chafing around the edge. The liner is size marked "62." It is complete with it's original chinstrap and drawstring. The three liner rivets are 100% original and untouched. The helmet is completely untouched, and is a fine example of an untouched Waffen-SS combat helmet with little light wear. The overall condition is very good++ GMA-7170

Our Price: $7,495.00

 

[M45]

Champagne ss m40 ns64 chickenwire

Some of you may know that I am not a big fan of champagne SS helmets. I also suspect that the SE/hkp and NS helmet factories did not produce a factory SS helmet during the TR era.
According to K. Hicks in SS Steel, NS SS helmets are few in number. Some problems I have with these photos:

--we never see the other side of this NS M40. Is there evidence of a former Heer decal? NS M40 lot number lists show a base production of nearly all SD Heer helmets with just a few SD Luftwaffes.
--the photos of many of these champagne SS decals show suspicious repetitive pock marking (artificial wear?)
--It has been rumored that many of these champagne SS decals were applied during the 1970's, which would tie in with the dates in the description.
--The vet provenance is unconvincing
--the chickenwire is a nice additional touch, but when was it installed?

http://ss-steel-inc.com/ss_steel_feature.htm

The feature helmet for the month of August is an outstanding example of an NS64 M-40 Chickenwire SS Helmet that I vet purchased at the Columbus Gun Show in the 1970s. I did a writeup on this helmet in "SS-Steel, Updated Edition" after I had returned to the States and had access to it again via the old collector I had traded it to. The helmet sat in my collection for years and to me was simply what an SS helmet was-- something that told a story. The veteran sold this to me for 240 dollars, along with a decent police Luger holster. As I was standing there at his table, he made a gesture toward his son and asked him if one last time, he wanted the helmet. The boy declined (fortunately!) and I took the helmet. The vet said he took straw out from behind the chickenwire before he came to the gun show (not the best news I could have heard). He also said he got the helmet during engagements with HJ Division in Normandy (he claimed he shot the wearer). When I got the helmet home, I discovered a hank of hair attached to a tiny bit of (skull) bone up inside the dome of the helmet. This was to me gruesome--it was obvious the liner and inside had been blood soaked and left as is. My mother saw this and ordered me to take the helmet out of the house and into the garage. This is what I recall in 2013 of that event that took place in 1975 or 4. The helmet was a birthday gift to a friend of mine, then it wound up in an advanced "closet" collection; then came back to me for a short while then went to a local advanced collector who enjoys it immensely. The shell is a dark Schiefergrau finish, with wide style Champagne rune (If you look in "SS-Steel, Updated Edition" you will see a chapter devoted to NS helmet characteristics and champagne rune variations--Also Quist Decal variations). Pictured below are a recent picture of the helmet; a 1970s picture of the helmet on my picnic table along with another champagne rune (M-42 --ckl I think)and some pages from SS-Steel discussing the NS decal variations and helmets they appear on.

 

[Hambone]

There was a fellow years back, in the 80s, who had sheets of original SS decals which he kept in a briefcase and sold at the shows. These original decals ended up on many no decal helmets, particularly M.42s. Within the last 5 years or so there was an uproar at WAF and GHW when Bill Maertz identified an "M.42 SS single decal helmet" proudly displayed by its owner as one of his "restorations" with one of these original decals. The owner was a high post count forum "VIP" and his vendor one of the stalhelm gods of the WAFtarded (i.e., an old school show vendor). It created quite a stink when ole Maerts, as prolific a helmet "restorer" from the 70s, 80s, and 90s, as Wilt Chamberlain was a serial "dater", let everyone know that he had made hundreds of such helmets. The wailing, attacks, and gnashing of the teef of the worshippers of WAFmods was hilarious.

 

[Hambone]

Some of you may know that I am not a big fan of champagne SS helmets. I also suspect that the SE/hkp and NS helmet factories did not produce a factory SS helmet during the TR era.
According to K. Hicks in SS Steel, NS SS helmets are few in number. Some problems I have with these photos:

--we never see the other side of this NS M40. Is there evidence of a former Heer decal? NS M40 lot number lists show a base production of nearly all SD Heer helmets with just a few SD Luftwaffes.
--the photos of many of these champagne SS decals show suspicious repetitive pock marking (artificial wear?)
--It has been rumored that many of these champagne SS decals were applied during the 1970's, which would tie in with the dates in the description.
--The vet provenance is unconvincing
--the chickenwire is a nice additional touch, but when was it installed?

http://ss-steel-inc.com/ss_steel_feature.htm

Great story from Hicks. Bill Maertz was actively making SS helmets back then with original decals. Maybe they should shoot it with the XRF ray gun and provide a pie chart.

 

[mauser99]

Ive heard this mentioned before. I for one am glad I only want one SS helmet and own a textbook m40sd Q named ect. Bought recently @ a Friday night Small town Kansas auction for a whopping 150.00 bucks.

Anyway, If anyone can tell when a decal is applied I bow to them

I understand that an original m42 nd mated with an original SS decal isn't original But, I guess its the next best thing as long as its being sold as such.. "never the case though"

Lot # research is the only way to nail down patterns of makers and decal applications.

As another collector mentioned buy an m42nd now before they all disappear and become Cammos and SS lids.
This is truly the case.

 

[Hambone]

Ive heard this mentioned before. I for one am glad I only want one SS helmet and own a textbook m40sd Q named ect. Bought recently @ a Friday night Small town Kansas auction for a whopping 150.00 bucks.

Anyway, If anyone can tell when a decal is applied I bow to them

I understand that an original m42 nd mated with an original SS decal isn't original But, I guess its the next best thing as long as its being sold as such.. "never the case though"

Lot # research is the only way to nail down patterns of makers and decal applications.

As another collector mentioned by a m42nd now before they all disappear and become Cammos and SS lids.
This is truly the case.

That's funny because I've said the same thing. I like M.42 Heer NDs. The cheapest I have was one that was a mint one given to me by a collector buddy. I still have it. They were around $150, tops, in mint shape back in the early 90s. I will say that the allure of the mint single decal SS helmet has worn off quite a bit. Remember, when the fellow with the sheets (and I mean hundreds of decals) of original SS decals was roaming the shows selling them, and Martz was most active "restoring" M.42 helmets to "SS" with original SS decals, that's when the collector rage was minty helmets with perfect decals. That's why morons would "uncover" decals with acetone on overpainted and camo helmets. Back then, ugly old camo helmets and wire helmets were not the rage. So how many M.42 SS single decal helmets were made? Maertz says he made hundreds. Where are they now? And importantly, how many of you have seen an original SS decal on its backing paper?

 

[History]

That's funny because I've said the same thing. I like M.42 Heer NDs. The cheapest I have was one that was a mint one given to me by a collector buddy. I still have it. They were around $150, tops, in mint shape back in the early 90s. I will say that the allure of the mint single decal SS helmet has worn off quite a bit. Remember, when the fellow with the sheets (and I mean hundreds of decals) of original SS decals was roaming the shows selling them, and Martz was most active "restoring" M.42 helmets to "SS" with original SS decals, that's when the collector rage was minty helmets with perfect decals. That's why morons would "uncover" decals with acetone on overpainted and camo helmets. Back then, ugly old camo helmets and wire helmets were not the rage. So how many M.42 SS single decal helmets were made? Maertz says he made hundreds. Where are they now? And importantly, how many of you have seen an original SS decal on its backing paper?

Or how many of you own one of them? I dont but have seen many I thought I'd like to. I have one m-40 relic SS that I feel good about about but it was cheap so,,,,,,,

 

[M45]

If I may shamelessly plug German helmet lot number research it gives a decent picture of factory production such as the factory decal drops. IMO, postwar decal application occurred largely on factory no-decal (ND) helmets, and lot number lists are casting light on these minty, high lot numbered, 'late war' SS helmets.

Another interesting thing revealed by the lists, is what does not show up. For example, SS helmets are rarely seen with the SE/hkp and NS factory markings. Those that do surface (often have the Champagne SS runes) should be heavily scrutinized in regards to lot number and decal type.

Apparently, the ET factory supplemented their base production of M35 SS helmets (the ET-SS base decal) with some CA Pocher SS decals. Some SS collectors contend that this was occasionally done to supplement ET SS base production (RE: CA Pocher SS decals factory applied on some ET factory M35 helmets)

Concerning the Champagne SS decal, some are saying that this decal was also used to supplement base SS helmet production. But concerning the SE/hkp and NS helmet factories, there does not appear to be a base production SS decal to supplement. Other than a few CA Pocher reissues, you've got Champagne SS decals scattered about on M35/M40/M42s, but that's it.

If the Champagne SS decal was used to amend base factory SS helmet production, then what was the base SS decal for these factories?

 

[M45]

Dd w/ss helmet

Dd w/ss helmet found on the SS-Steel website. http://ss-steel-inc.com/ss_stell_original_helmets.htm

m40 et66 5065. While the lot number seems in line for factory DD M40 Waffen-SS helmets, that party colors decal is bugging me. The rest of the helmet is in nice shape, but is in no way pristine. Notice all of the minute dings, scrapes and rub marks on the paint. Now look at the party colors decal; it looks almost perfect, with the exception of some dirt (antiquing?) on the surface. Do I see a scratch running underneath the decal (lower right)?
The decal wear does not seem to match with the wear on the shell. I have learned the hard way to be suspicious and ask questions in this hobby.

Collectors should be aware that factory no-decal ET M40 helmets exist with Slate gray paint. These may have been old stock shells stamped out earlier but completed after the 8/28/43 decal drop. These ND M40 helmets are perfect candidates for postwar decal application. I do not see any green in this paint.

This is the finest condition, rarest type of ET helmet produced in WWII. It consists of an ET66 M-40 shell with 99% fine texture schiefergrau finish and 100% ET pattern runic and party shields. The rarity of this helmet is defined by the fact it is an M-40 with a four digit batch number (5065. My personal collection example of the same has batch number 5066, which puts this helmet at the earliest production run of the M40 shell by ET). Secondly, the presence of a glue and lacquer factory applied set of ET pattern double decals is an extreme rarity. Lastly, the condition of this piece is the finest I have seen in 49 years of collecting helmets. An inscription in the skirt of the helmet indicates it was issued to an SS-Uscha, and given the condition, research may reveal that this helmet was in a unit where it saw very light if any use (such as a camp or a main office). The pictures tell the story on this piece, which is one of the very best. The price is: ON HOLD and comes with my lifetime guarantee of authenticity.

 

[M45]

M42 Single Decal Waffen SS

German CKL 64 4357 M42 Single Decal Waffen SS Helmet WW II Nazi Authentic Rare

eBay item number: 221496901454

I am selling my original period WW II CKL M42 single decal SS helmet in beautiful condition. This helmet contains the highly desired Champagne Runic in almost perfect condition. It is missing the chin strap but should not be a problem to find a replacement if desired. It is stamped CKL 64 which is one of the rarer than many of the others and 4357. These helmets were made towards the end of the war and this one is one of the best I have seen as far as condition. It has been authenticated by several WWII militaria experts. For more information about this helmet refer to SS Steel by Kelly Hicks. This helmet has an appraisal value of $7,500 to $10,000 due to the condition of it. I am not expecting to get that but I am not desperate to let go of for less than what I paid for it. This is an investment and a beautiful piece to add to your collection. It will only continue to rise in value and you would be hard pressed to find one in this condition which adds even more to the value.

I am selling my original period WW II CKL M42 single decal SS helmet....

Its not original, period.

in beautiful condition.....

Pretty rough condition, actually.

This helmet contains the highly desired Champagne Runic....

Sorry. Champagnes have blocky runes like the ET SS decal. This looks like a cheap, horrible copy of a Pocher SS decal. BTW: for people in the know, Champagne SS decals are not highly desirable.

It is stamped CKL 64 which is one of the rarer than many of the others.....

Original CKL M42 SD SS helmets with ET-SS decals are not considered rare.

These helmets were made towards the end of the war.....

Thale officially stopped producing SS helmets on 1 November 1943. With 17 months of war left, I would not consider that date towards the end of the war.

It has been authenticated by several WWII militaria experts....

I would like to know which 'experts' authenticated this piece of junk.

For more information about this helmet refer to SS Steel by Kelly Hicks....

That book will only show you what a real Pocher-SS decal looks like.

This helmet has an appraisal value of $7,500 to $10,000 due to the condition of it.....

Come down out of the clouds. This poor restoration might be worth $200 to a reenactor.

I am not expecting to get that but I am not desperate to let go of for less than what I paid for it.....

I'm curious to know just what did you pay for this?

This is an investment and a beautiful piece to add to your collection. It will only continue to rise in value and you would be hard pressed to find one in this condition which adds even more to the value.....

Pure, unadulterated B.S, just like the rest of the statements.

Ebay Seller: merkabatradingco
Price: US $5000

 

[M45]

Ns64 m42 b04

HG-1066. WW2 German M42 single decal SS helmet named. Overall very nice condition helmet, decal, paint, and liner. Chinstrap marked and helmet has dome stamp. Named on liner. Size and marker marked NS 64.........$5,600.

http://www.johnnyg.westhost.com/hg1066.html

NS64 m42 B04 SD SS POCHER-SS

A very convincing M42 SD SS helmet. So what seems to be the problem?

No matter what you may have heard otherwise, there is no conclusive evidence that the NS helmet firm ever produced a factory SS helmet. Not M35s not M40s and not M42s. Those that do appear are either period reissues with Pocher-SS decals or postwar alterations.

We are not dealing with a factory applied decal here. Even so, this example should be a good period reissue since it has an apparently original Pocher SS decal.

Remember that original SS decals (Pocher, ET) were acquired by the sheet after the war and brought home as souvenirs. Vets applied these SS decals to various types of equipment, and yes, to German helmets also.

How might we know just when this Pocher-SS decal was applied; wartime or postwar?

Ask yourself some questions:

Does the decal itself appear very bright and new while the surrounding helmet finish is dull, flat and worn? Does the condition of the decal match the condition of the helmet it sets on?

Is the wear on the decal believable, or does it appear repetitive and contrived? Is there believable wear in conjunction with both decal and helmet, showing that the helmet and decal had been together in action?

Other examples in the lot number list show later finished helmets, so if authentic this would have been a late period field mod. Officially after 1 November 1943 factory SS decal application was halted. This order would have likely affected depot refinished helmets as well. SS troopers in the field would have been likewise discouraged from applying decals to their helmets after this date.

So late helmets with period SS decals would be rare, I would think.

On the other hand, a $400 ND helmet mated with an original Pocher SS decal post war can reap benefits up to 10X or more of the original investment.

There are a lot of 4th Reich helmets out there, be aware. To play it safe, I would stick with SS helmets with known factory SS decal application that have lot number ranges near other similarly decaled helmets.
$5600 is a lot of money to be spending on helmets with so many questions.

 

[Luft1]

I may have completely unintentionally wandered into SS helmet ownership and am trying to figure out if that is true or not. About 10 years ago John Burnett (some of you may remember him) had a medic marked camo that I really wanted just because I liked the way it looked, but didn't want to invest in because of all of the horror stories abounding around the community. I had a duplicate K98 that John wanted so after almost a year of back and forth negotiating, we ended up trading. Again, if you knew John, letting go of one of his prized helmets was extremely hard for him and was equivalent to amputating a finger. Anyway, now its 10+ years later and I had just received Brian Ice's version 6 great listing of helmet producers and lot numbers so I decided to see if it could add any info to what I had. The paint is old, thick, hand applied, and covers everything, and the supposed owner's name is painted inside the back of the rim with the same paint. And the color is the correct cream vs white and the red crosses are now almost dark reddish-orange. My assumption was, if it was real, just a nice maybe example of a Heer.

Using Brian's listing I again expected to see multiple potential original receivers of the lot number, a listing for the Luft, a listing for the Heer, etc. What I found was only one: according to Brian's data, all of this maker's size and lot number went to the SS. All of Brian's information for the liner and other info is exacatly what is in the helmet today and it shows no sign of ever being disturbed. I do remember John telling me that this was one of the first helmets he had ever owned and was one of the 2 or 3 that started him on collecting, so that dates the ownership back to the 70's.

So I'm now in a quandry: do I think it's real or is it Memorex? Any thoughts from the helmet gurus? I like it just because of the way it looks, I'm going to keep it and by today's cost standards, don't have a lot invested in it. Hambone, this is the one I think I shared pictures with you about 1-2- years ago

 

[mauser99]

asking questions without posting photos is like doing a booty contest blindfolded.. You have a real medic or an elaborate fake.. Lot #'s are a real good guide to telling what a helmet might be or isn't. I do use it as a guide myself.

 

[Luft1]

Certainly agree about photos and fakes. Actually, my concern/question really wasn't in the fake vs real area, it's in what the lot number scenario is able to tell. That particular tool is really new to me. I understand intellectually that its supposed to only tell what branch received a certain range of helmets, I'm just wondring how the rest of you use it and if you have any examples as to how it has helped or led you astray

thanks, sorry about not being clearer the first time